Why a wipe after EA may actually be bad for newbies and the game

Zijkhal

Learned-to-turn-off-magboots endo
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Sep 26, 2019
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48
#1
TLDR: Existing infrastructure would help new players more than hinder them thanks to no built-in GPS and other QoL features that players can make themselves

There has been talks about wipe or not to wipe after EA ends and the game goes full release. The main talking points I came across for a wipe would be established factions oppressing new players, depleted resources, limited opportunities for the new players.

So, what about the first, established factions oppressing new ppl? The thing is that first, there is a dev safezone at the starter locations, so newbies can build up in peace until they are at a comfortable level to venture out. Second, I'd wager the same would happen even after a wipe because established factions have experience and probably numbers to pool their resources.
What about depleting resources? The starter safezone will continuosly expand if the asteroids inside are being mined out, new stations will be constructed at its edges to expand it.
Limited opportunities? We just cant tell at this point, it may actually end up that new players have limited opportunities, but if that is the case, the game should not go into full release, because eventually, the same thing will happen to the released game, pushing away new players, which would slowly strangle the game. Essentially, if new players would have very limited opportunities because of the maturity of the game world, the game is not ready to be released.
Of course, a lot of these things can only be ascertained once the game is in EA, and has been in EA for long enough, and also, other problems may arise along the way.

Why not wipe?
The main arguement is the already existing infrastructure. And no, NOT because it would hurt to lose all that progress (although it definitely would), but because all that infrastructure could immensely help newbies. Starbase is a hardcore game. You dont have a GPS system like in Space Engineers that magically tells you your position in the game world, or anything even remotely similar. If you go out mining, for example, and lose sight of where you are, you can get lost, with no hope to return other than self-destruct. That will be a major quitting point for a lot of players. There are already projects in planning to establish a set of "GPS satellites" that could be used to calculate a position in space, and have a reference point. There are also mapping projects. Shipyard companies.

The thing with the Shipyard part is that ppl will tend to buy ships that have these features like a map for the ship with the ship's location and the locations of major stations and other POIs marked, a ship with a feature that points you in the direction of your destination station, maybe even autopilots you there, maybe even warns you and possibly automatically redirects you to a nearby refueling station if you dont have enough fuel / reactor rods.
Point is, ships with these sort of QoL features will tend to sell better than ships without. So one could expect that the ship market will consist of mostly ships that have these features. And guess what ship newbies will buy? I'd imagine the one that says NEWBIE FRIENDLY in as big and bright letters as possible, especially if the playerbase and the devs manage to communicate to the newbies just how difficult this game can be without these QoL features on their ships.

If the game world is wiped after EA, it will take a considerable amount of time until mass production of ships can be set up again, enough time that most of the ppl who only bought the game after launch / launch campaign would miss out on these and potentially give up due to the difficulty.
 

Eranok

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Aug 9, 2019
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40
#2
'Oppressing'.

I m not in the mind of devs but either its an open PvP game or its not. Either we stop immediately with the 'oh pirates nooo they grief me' mentality and we clearly state that the game is pvp 'you were warned' or we stop open pvp, and we go for an arena kind of game with consensual pvp. I think there is no middle ground there.

Then wipes are ok and common in open pvp games (and good), and they are frustrating in consensual pvp games.

Same with learning. In an open PvP game, you expect dying and learning from it. In a PvE/consensual PvP game, you expect the game to tell you everythin you need to know.
 

Zijkhal

Learned-to-turn-off-magboots endo
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#3
I did not mean oppressing in that way, more like vassalize and terrorize way.
I agree with the sentiment of dont cry if you get attacked in a PvP area (any area outside safezones is a PvP area), especially that we have the safezones that are intended to be entirely playable, and the player not having to leave it if they dont want to.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
110
#4
I really think you are right.
this game will be quite hard to play after a wipe since its a comunity game...
I feel like a wipe could destroy a lot of world-progress since then we would basicly have to build a whole world/community back up.
i would see a lot of players quitting (even whole factions) if they see that all of their hard work had ben magically removed.
this wont be a PvP game like Rust where you just randomly shoot everyone you see (or I at least hope it wont turn out that way) becourse almost everyone is in a faction of some sort and you could bring a whole war just from shooting some stranger.
this will probably be a different kind of PvP with a lot more undercover stuff or full out wars (at least for the bigger factions)
 

Eranok

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#5
A wipe also resets the economies of scales of large groups and enable new equilibriums, new rebalances, new metas, new opportunities. I m not pro-wipe at all costs, but there are many considerations and it depends a lot on the future game.

With what i know about the game, I still believe the open pvp will be the end-game loop and the defining identity (and i like it)
 

Zijkhal

Learned-to-turn-off-magboots endo
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#6
A wipe also resets the economies of scales of large groups and enable new equilibriums, new rebalances, new metas, new opportunities. I m not pro-wipe at all costs, but there are many considerations and it depends a lot on the future game.

With what i know about the game, I still believe the open pvp will be the end-game loop and the defining identity (and i like it)
There are some merits to a wipe. But I think the closest to full launch the last wipe should be is enough time to rebuild most of that essential infrastructure. Still, I can only see such a wipe neccessary, if the changes since EA launch have made it neccessary, and not to rebalance.

Another problem with the wipe for balance approach is that if the game is not fun in a well-established game world, then players who join well after launch will face the same problem that would be pushed aside with a wipe. aka, if a wipe is needed to make the game fun for newcomers, the game needs more tweaking.
 

Atreties

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#7
It's an EA game. Some wipes will be required in order to implement certain features or changes. Whether or not they are good or bad is fully moot. They are inevitable in these stages.
 

Zijkhal

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#8
It's an EA game. Some wipes will be required in order to implement certain features or changes. Whether or not they are good or bad is fully moot. They are inevitable in these stages.
Yes, and thats not at all what I am talking about. What I am talking about is an end-of-EA wipe to provide newbies a level playing field, which wipe is a bad idea for the above mentioned reasons. I fully understand that wipes during EA may be neccessary for various reasons.
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
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#9
Those networks will come back. They'll most likely be set up faster, too, since the builders already know exactly how to go about it, and others who understand the value will likely want to contribute.

In sandbox games like these, wipes between beta/EA and the official release give new players the chance to experience more gameplay opportunities than they would have if they were dumped into a world that was already built up. For instance, if a new player contributes to rebuilding the network, they'll see the project they helped out with go up and running, and in my opinion that's one of the best feelings you can get out of a sandbox game. Far more valuable towards the gameplay experience than having a functioning compass. On the flip side, if they get dumped into a game (a game with a heavy focus on building) where everyone's already built everything they need, there's far less opportunity for them. In my eyes, it's not "we just cant tell at this point", there's absolutely no question that they'll have fewer opportunities.

I agree that existing infrastructure would help new players, but that help comes with a catch, and I don't believe they really need that help to begin with.
 

Verbatos

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#10
I think a wipe may or may not be a bad thing depending in how long early access lasts. If ea lasts only a short time and people don't have many resources anyway, it won't matter to wind time back a bit when the full release comes out. But if ea lasts longer than expected, and players build up large ships and pools of resources, a wipe would only serve to anger the players who played during ea.
 

Zijkhal

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#11
On the flip side, if they get dumped into a game (a game with a heavy focus on building) where everyone's already built everything they need, there's far less opportunity for them.
But there is the catch, I do not think this game is all about building stuff. Yes, you can build stuff with amazing detail, such detail we haven't seen in many other games, but building is only one of the core aspects of the game. You may just as well be a trader, a miner, a mercenary, a pirate, or a freelancer who does whatever ppl pay you to do. I believe this game is more than just a game focused on building, Starbase is more like EVE Online with the ability to build everything piece by piece.

Another thing is that if it is not fun to "get dumped into a universe where everyone's already built everything they need", then those who join the game well after launch get to experience the same problems. A wipe would just delay the inevitable in this case. Thus, if it would not be fun for newcomers to get into a mature game world, then the game should not be released in the first place.

Also, because the game world will be expanding constantly, there will always be a frontier than needs those systems to be established. Players who would like to build and establish an infrastructure will be able to do so at those places.
 
Joined
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#12
I didn't say it was ALL about building stuff, but there is a focus on it. Nor did I say it's NOT fun to get dumped into a built-up universe, either. A good game is always going to have numerous gameplay branches for players to go have fun in. But that doesn't mean they should be denied one of those branches simply because they didn't buy into early access. You're right that, eventually, the game world will just be built right back up again and new players post-launch will have less to experience. New players will also have a knowledge gap and be behind older players. That's just the nature of the beast, and sandbox games deal with this in different ways -- releasing new land, new servers, ignoring it, etc.

People who don't buy into early access should be given the greatest opportunity to take part in the early exploration and building portion of the game when it officially releases. In past sandboxes, I'd see a fair bit of "new guys" quit and I'd ask why whenever I had the chance. Their reason was usually things like "there's not much to do" or "there's nowhere left to build". None of them ever quit because they got lost. Getting lost won't be as big a quitting factor as you believe it will be. Conversely, this early stage of the game world, where the world is every player's oyster, is vital for new player retention.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
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#13
I support any wipe after a game is full released.

Everybody should have the same state at the beginning of the game.
The only disadvantage a newbie has in Starbase, is knowledge. If you're not in the early access or alpha, you simple have a disadvantage compare to the alpha and early access players.

You will face this disadvantage as a newbie, no matter how many videos you look. You may get some basics but you cant try anything by watching a video.

A complete fresh wipe could not compensate the disadvantage of knowledge, but atleast everybody can build up right from skratch. (And hell, I hope they will wipe everything when its going to be in full release - no matter if im goging to play in the early access state.)

It should be done to be fair - and maybee the more advanced players could help the newbies to build up from skratch.
 

shado20

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May 16, 2020
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#14
wipe or not to wipe, that is the question... :)
in a game like this a wipe should be voided at all cost. but if a game feature comes in and there is no way to ovoid it then it is what it is.

this is a nation building game, stations are going to be big and factory will be setup. to wipe from EA to release is silly. the difference between the 2 at the end of EA is almost nothing. release is more about promoting the game. and the game will look way better without wiping it.
 

Cavilier210

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Nov 12, 2019
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576
#15
They've already said they plan to wipe after CA, but that we will likely be able to keep our BP's. Some stations and ships may remain as wreckage.
 

shado20

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#16
o you half to wipe after CA. to much money and ship credits handed out for testing to be good in a fair economy.
 

Saltylelele

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Aug 9, 2019
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64
#17
They've already said they plan to wipe after CA, but that we will likely be able to keep our BP's. Some stations and ships may remain as wreckage.
Some BP's. It might be asked that we remove some very old ones to free up some space on their servers.
 

Orlover

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Feb 3, 2021
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#18
o you half to wipe after CA. to much money and ship credits handed out for testing to be good in a fair economy.
Yea I have got like a billion credits in ships in all the SSC's scattered throughout the game. Probably about 220k credits from the last event alone. I blew up most of them but still plenty left. I can't imagine the devs letting us keep all that for release.

Blueprints sure, ships in the ssc...That would be insane.
 

Messir Astaroth

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Aug 9, 2019
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#19
I suggest no wipe for the existing ship shops and blueprints. The rest of the garbage can (and must) be wiped.

But wiping the shops/bps - is a bad bad bad bad idea! Since there are a lot of ships for the new players and rookies, people have spent countless hours building them, to make other ppls lives (and especially the new players) easier. If this all gettin dumped, Im afraid we will just uninstal it, lol...
 
Joined
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#20
You know the game is in alpha and not even in ea and why should you have advantages over new players? It's a game and not your god given right to accumulate wealth just to triumph over new players later.
If it is not possible for you to play the game fairly you are welcome to uninstall it. No one on the planet would have a problem with that.
 
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