Make the Warp Core great again!

MrFaul

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#1
I wholeheartedly welcome the recent changes to the Warp Gate use, and it should stay that way.

However that leaves us now with a big chunking paperweight called warp core.

So since I like the thing, I'd like to breathe new life into it:
Fast travel for small ships but of course with some caveats.

1. Is slower than cap ship travel.
2. Works only in open space: no safe zones, no belts, no gravity wells.
3. Stops before safe zones, hmm let's say about 10km
4. Can only lock on to station signals.
5. Eats Exorium.
6. Eats Exorium.

I think this will be a very useful addition.
Your thoughts?
 

Vexus

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#2
I think this idea has some promise, giving a good money-sink into the game which is badly needed.

1. First, I would require it to use the navigation logger that currently exists; get more use out of that game mechanic.
2. It should only be able to travel at like 1000m/s (~8x faster than current ships).
3. It should not phase through rocks or objects, if at all possible (collision should be "allowed"). This satisfies your #2 for the most part, as people will not want to activate it if they are going through a belt - but they would also have that freedom should they know a perfectly clear-path to their destination.
4. With your #5 and #6, it should cost a lot, like 1 stack of exorium per 10k distance, perhaps more or less depending on total ship weight, trading money for speed (and thus, time), and making a 250km jump cost ~125k credits at current Origin prices (remote location prices would go up, then!). This also limits overall range and use; not going to the moon like this.
5. It should be a straight line from point to point, just like the current warp mechanics.
6. I agree it should not be usable from within a safe zone or close to one ~1000m out, nor have a destination inside a safe zone; arbitrary logic, which I usually dislike, but it needs some risk involved, and some way for players to intercept if they do a lot of recon work.
7. Start and end positions should leave some trace of the warp having occurred for a while, if possible. This would allow recon as in my #6; much more likely people will re-use the same points in the future.
8. A warm-up time should be required. Maybe 1 to 5 minutes max. Again, gives some counter play.
9. A cool-down time might be good, to increase risk and counter play.

An issue with "speeds beyond the normal game speeds" is it removes people from the game. There's almost no counter play to it, and eliminates a lot of risk. EVE did a good job with their warp bubbles - and truly, Starbase can do the same, using the warp core itself in a mode which disrupts warp within a large area perhaps - and the game benefited from there being a lot of ways to interact around this mechanic.

Speed is very important to have it done right, so this is not something I'd ever want thrown together, but truly thought out in all the ways it could be abused and so on. It's so powerful, it should come with significant risks to use that almost guarantee some loss of the ship if used enough times. Meaning, if someone sees a warp-exit and places some trash objects there, the next time the warping ship comes into that position it takes significant damage due to the collision at high speed.

Tricky to do collision at high speeds, but maybe some predictive logic during the warm up and cool down period could resolve potential collisions.

Overall a decent idea, mainly for the credit and resource sink it would create. Beyond that, all sorts of things open up, like player transport options and so on. If people can hop on a transport from Origin to Markka, paying their way of ~30k credits let's say, and it will take them ~10 minutes to get there vs. the 45m-1hr they might otherwise have, it gives some good choices. In addition... the transport ship will be out of the safe zone a long time... this strengthens company relationships and makes you less likely to haul an enemy company member on your ship.

One thing to consider is player inventory weight should count towards the total fuel cost, so people aren't hauling free inventories of loot around. But anyway, like I said, lots to consider to make it work well, and it's not a necessity by any means; the game doesn't need it, and would take away from so much natural travel that it might even be detrimental to the game. Careful consideration is needed. Maybe in a few years ;)
 

Colonkin

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#3
+1
We need a WARP SUPPRESSOR! ))
It will be interesting!
Regarding the price of the warp. It seems to me that there should be some kind of fixed price per km / ton. Both in money and in fuel (although you can use progression - the more weight, the more expensive). And use let's say not Exorium but let's say Karnit. By analogy with tanks with liquid exorium.
By the way, warp suppressors must also consume fuel.
 

MrFaul

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#4
Naaa I don't think navigation data Chips are the thing here.
It should only to be able to travel to stations within range meaning 500km max.
With a single "jump" that is.

Maybe adding a additional navigation/homing beacon that are always public to the station could be a interesting idea. This adds value to stations while adding the risk of broadcasting your existence.

This is meant to be as a method to "skip" boring travel through empty space.
I dig the idea of warp interdiction bubbles and 10km should be plenty.
Also a small charge up / cool down is a good idea.
But beyond that it becomes a chore and not a useful tool.

Cost must be accessible since this is still fairly low tech.
 

Colonkin

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#5
It's all a matter of balance. The player will have the choice to fly slowly and stealthily, or to warp at the risk of getting into trouble but save a lot of time. In any case, I applaud the AFK game time reduction mechanic.
 

MrFaul

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#6
Of course, balance is key.
I think binding small ship fast travel to stations as destinations only is a valid trade off since it is a very powerful tool.

But this also gives tremendous value to stations and a reason to be there tbh why should you bother with stations when you could have a cap.
Using them as destination makers makes them relevant.
You could take it one step further and add a specific warp fuel that can only produced on stations, there, big fat Business opportunity to keep the lights on.

This ties nicely into the "there will be hotspots" stigma @LauriFB 😉
 

Colonkin

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#7
Of course, balance is key.
I think binding small ship fast travel to stations as destinations only is a valid trade off since it is a very powerful tool.

But this also gives tremendous value to stations and a reason to be there tbh why should you bother with stations when you could have a cap.
Using them as destination makers makes them relevant.
You could take it one step further and add a specific warp fuel that can only produced on stations, there, big fat Business opportunity to keep the lights on.

This ties nicely into the "there will be hotspots" stigma @LauriFB 😉
Also, by analogy with Eve, if the warp goes to a point, then you can choose the distance before the warp. From the minimum (let's say 10 km) to the maximum (30-50 km). To still be able to avoid trouble. A hard warp point makes camping too easy.
 

pavvvel

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#8
"Private warp"? Again?? Anyone who sees the state of the game understands that if you give the ships the ability to warp, then it will be impossible to introduce the mechanics of intercepting such ships into the game. This is another suggestion on how to simplify the game and avoid pvp by making the game casual.
You already have rich safe zones, there are unkillable cap ships, although according to the initial information about the game this is a completely destructible universe.

No, no and no
 
Joined
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Messages
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#9
"Private warp"? Again?? Anyone who sees the state of the game understands that if you give the ships the ability to warp, then it will be impossible to introduce the mechanics of intercepting such ships into the game. This is another suggestion on how to simplify the game and avoid pvp by making the game casual.
You already have rich safe zones, there are unkillable cap ships, although according to the initial information about the game this is a completely destructible universe.

No, no and no

That is a whole lot of assumption you have going on here.
 

Colonkin

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#10
"Private warp"? Again?? Anyone who sees the state of the game understands that if you give the ships the ability to warp, then it will be impossible to introduce the mechanics of intercepting such ships into the game. This is another suggestion on how to simplify the game and avoid pvp by making the game casual.
You already have rich safe zones, there are unkillable cap ships, although according to the initial information about the game this is a completely destructible universe.

No, no and no
1) In this case, this is not a mobile base warp WITHOUT SZ.
2) The warp goes between two stationary points visible to everyone. That even without WT greatly simplifies the interception.
3) The presence of a warp suppressor on the way between the beacons is generally a holiday for PVP.
4) Warp limitation, for example, the same 500 km.

This will allow at least not to fly for days on known routes.
If not, no and no. Then you, too, NO NO and NEVER. ))
Two people can play this game! )))
 

pavvvel

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#11
You don't understand that making a warp for a ship is 100 times easier than making it possible to intercept and blow it up.
 

Colonkin

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#12
I understand everything perfectly.
But this concept of warp is much more logical and correct than jumping on mobile bases with a safe zone.
Yes, I agree tracking down is harder than jumping. But if they tracked down, then the prey will no longer run away.
Finding one ant in a huge forest is very difficult. But if you let the ant move much faster on the roads, then you don't have to search the forest. It is enough to control the intersections of roads.
 

MrFaul

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#13
"Private warp"? Again?? Anyone who sees the state of the game understands that if you give the ships the ability to warp, then it will be impossible to introduce the mechanics of intercepting such ships into the game.
Yeah I know where you are coming from, I was there too.

But let's do some fact checking here:

First of all casual players are what breathe life into the universe since those are the majority of players.
They play maybe 3-4h max a day more like 1-2h regularly and as everybody can agree, you can manage s**t in this time frame when you are alone.
So too keep them around you need to throw them a bone like this tool.
Because an empty universe is a dead game.

Second by having obvious trade routes interdiction and pvp becomes much more predictable to the point that counter piracy forces get actually a viable source of income. (For that a bounty system would be nice)

Third this is really only meant to skip empty space because flying through that is really suuuper boring. And there is virtually no reason to have that in any game.
By skipping that more time is spend on the fun stuff like defending against an interdiction.
 

pavvvel

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#14
You think very narrowly. You don't understand how to implement it. You hide your clever idea of how to evade other players. Its realized in Elite Dangerous. But there are interception mechanics in hyper cruise. It is impossible to make such mechanics here at the moment.
 

MrFaul

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#15
You think very narrowly.
Says the guy who either missed a huge point of this discussion or didn't read it entirely...

You do understand what interdiction bubbles are, don't you?
With a bubble of a 10km radius aka 20km in diameter you have a massive area covered.
Make that 4 people and you can cast a bonkers net of 40x40 km.
You are certain to get a lot of customers when you set this up on a well known trade route.
So yeah I see a non issue here.

However the issue I see is that "regions" are currently not 100% implemented since there should be restrictions to cap fast travel based on that already which are missing.
 

Vexus

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#16
First of all casual players are what breathe life into the universe since those are the majority of players.
Not on topic, but this is completely wrong. Casual players consume the universe, but the life of it is made by the hardcore players. All the player ship shops and more were due to the hardcore players. All the bought ships, due to the hardcore players. All the alloys in the auction house right now...

In every game ever, it is the tournaments and constant push of the most skilled players which keeps the game alive. Appealing to the casual players because they make up a larger portion of the playerbase is never the right move. It is the player who plays the game consistently and gains knowledge of the inner workings of the game which push other players to invest their time and get better. No current successful game is there appealing to those who can't be bothered. Elden Ring is a good example of "hard game good" because they catered to the non-casual crowd - yet many casual players buy the game and never beat it. I know it's not the topic but being the majority does not do anything except buy cosmetics. League of Legends is alive due to tournaments and high tier skilled players streaming - hardcore players through and through. That game is actively balanced by the devs, not to appeal to casual players, but to keep competitive play for the hardcore players alive. This is the same trend across all successful games. Even WoW has competition between top guilds for new game content completion; content most players won't ever see. I have to speak up against this because this is the poison that kills good games, to think you need to appeal to the casual player instead of the hardcore player. Your hardcore player will be loyal and stick around for years; the casual player moves on to the next game because everyone is talking about it.

<not intended to start a forum war here>
 

MrFaul

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#17
Vexus for those games you mentioned I agree with you completely.
However all your examples are long established games and Starbase is not there yet.
With the exception of Elden Ring, that got the Hype Train and managed to keep it running since they pretty much delivered.
Looking at it that way, it established it self pretty fast 🤣

Anyway, let me rephrase "casuals" to "cannon fodder".
Normally NPCs have those drone roles and allow devs to regulate a game.
SB hasn't that luxury, and I'm not sure if SB should ever have NPCs.
NPCs would be a awesome tool for the devs but imo they don't fit into SB.
So you need the game accessible enough to attract those players that basically do the NPCs job.
This is f-ing hardcore to do right. But that is what FB chose to do with the original idea of the game.

It is not my intention to water down the gameplay to a boring mess. Hell no, I love hardcore game mechanics.
But there is a difference between "Easy to learn, hard to master" and essentially what we currently have.
As it stands right now SB has no future as a MMO, and the direction it takes must be very careful and measured.
I think what others (including you ; ) and I propose here is a good measured step, even so it is not a "hardcore" one.



Not on topic, but this is completely wrong.
<not intended to start a forum war here>
Try "I disagree...", "IMO..." etc.
That way you don't get people on the defensive. 😉
Blatantly stating something is wrong that is not factual and opinion based starts drama real quick.
Except drama is your goal, since that is sometimes enjoyable too.
You know, to watch the world burn 😈 Muhahaha
 

pavvvel

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#18
First of all casual players are what breathe life into the universe since those are the majority of players.
Lol what? Casual players are poison, it's leprosy for MMOs. They don't invent anything, they come up with nothing but casual ideas that ultimately make the game worse. Worse, but easier, just so the casual player can put his belly on the table, drink 15 liters of beer in an evening and make 100 million that makes no sense.

The most useful players are the gankers and those who are ready to break and blow.. Thanks to them, all other players have to start thinking, learning, and being on their guard.

Instead of thinking, inventing, cooperating, overcoming, casual players look for opportunities and ideas to do nothing that involves risk and get a lot of money. the most prominent example is the game Elite Dangerous, where thanks to the casuals can not go into a single open world in which only 1% of players remain, you can blacklist thousands of players just because they can kill another player. And now for almost 5 years there are no new ships, no new weapons. There's been no rebalance, there's been nothing. and the streamers-employees of the developer don't even know how to land a ship or how to remove/retrieve ship weapons. the game is almost dead. They couldn't do the merging of the two DLCs, players from different DLCs can't see each other. They couldn't do PS5 support. "Thank you casuals."
 
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Colonkin

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#19
I don't think you can hear each other, gentlemen.A hardcore player can play different roles. Miner, trader, crafter, warrior, pirate, etc.
It is the desire and pleasure from playing out one's role that makes one loyal to the game. The task of the game designer is only to provide the tools to the player. He will find a job for himself. I do not agree with the fact that many roles are now oppressed. In any MMO, a player has a lot of routine operations. Flying to the target is one of them.
I am for balance for all hardcore players who play different roles. Give the opportunity to one role - give the tool and the other (maybe even a tool for counter play).In this thread, we offer it. There is fast travel. But there are also tools for intercepting, counteracting the jump.And do not belittle the role of casual players. They are the "food" for hardcore players. At the start, before leaving the game, they extract a certain amount of resources and leave. And already loyal players use them.In the end, a novice pirate has to hunt novice players. )))
And yes. In order to fight for something, this something must first be built or created. We accumulate fat and then we can already fight corporation against corporation. Even now reports about the situation around the moon Chemosh have suddenly disappeared. I wonder if it came to real fights there? Or do the parties fight only on forums and reddit?
About the example of other games.
Elden Ring, if released in the state in which EA launched Starbase, it would have died immediately. Incorrect comparison. ER has the basic basic game mechanics for all roles.
I don't even consider Elite Dangerous. She is not an MMO. There are no such technologies (but it's a pity. After all, Elite was my favorite game in the late 80s).
 

MrFaul

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#20
Colonkin gets it...
And yeah ED is a tragedy.
A game that had solid mechanics just to be destroyed by the fact they had no idea what to do with them gameplay wise.
At this point it is nothing more than a cookie clicker with slightly better graphics, a real shame what frontier did there.
 
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