Regarding "New Player Experience-survey"

[Tomasz]

With easly bugged mode and how focus of development seem to be placed im concerned that some experts form steam advised you to increase new player retention among casual gamers , and you decided to go along with that .
Starbase is a niche game and focusing on casual receiver will just diminsh experience from your actual audience in that niche.
This is exactly what Freejam did with their game Robocraft and all it did was chase away their core players without getting an yretention (since game became empty).
I know making experience for new players and learning curve is very important, but be cautious with building entire game about " new players".
Please.

 

[DivineEvil]

I don't think its something to worry about. It's also not very friendly to try and disregard someone's feedback about new player experience based on your own presupposition. It is true that some of the casual players might turn away from the game by the merit of its nature, but its another thing when a potential long-term players does so in response to the mere lack of basic explanations.

As I have myself offered to the survey, the gaping hole of the new player experience is lack of any hand-held tool guidance. These tools are just given without as little as notification, and no tutorial steps are given to describe their function or particular features (like auto-bolt and blueprint cable/pipe fill), nor to offer a practice with them. I feel like it is something essential for any players to be able to repair and modify their ships, which is a bare minimum knowledge required for independent activities.

I trust that you would agree this is something that have to be considered and not in any way "an appeal to casuals". Starbase needs as many players as it can handle for thriving economy and player interactions.

 

[Tomasz]

These are not presuppositions. Change in targeted audience under influence of steam evidently ruined Robocraft which was also about building your vehickle and controlling it into battle.Developpers of that game were interviewed years later about why they lost all their players so fast in ultra popular game.And developers themselves admitted that they that is what happened.

 

[Foraven]

I also loved Robocraft, but when I returned to it the gameplay had degraded so much... Self repairing robot, fewer maps to play on and the streamlining that made creative design less engaging. Sad to hear they have reached the bottom now and won't be back.

 

[Kelmoir]

While I agree, that changing game mechanics, because MBAs say, that there are more casuals out there, is bad, I still only really saw a feedback form on the tutorial/early player experience inside that feedback form.

Casual or not, a game should try to familiarize you with the core concepts of the game, and the current tutorial still has a few blind spots there. And not every new one has soaked up the wiki a few times, because he got interested months before early access.

 

[DivineEvil]

For me Robocraft became lost when it dropped severely in performance. Went pretty much unplayable. Because of that I've switched to Crossount and spent good 3200 hours in it. It had the opposite problem - too little wiggle room for newer players to get drawn into the game. Because of that it slowly declines, supported only by occasional resurgence spikes during timed events.

Thus, you can argue it can easily go both ways, and the more niche the game is, the more it relies on good introduction to get something beyond extremely limited number of dedicated players.

 

[Tomasz]

While I agree, that changing game mechanics, because MBAs say, that there are more casuals out there, is bad, I still only really saw a feedback form on the tutorial/early player experience inside that feedback form.

Casual or not, a game should try to familiarize you with the core concepts of the game, and the current tutorial still has a few blind spots there. And not every new one has soaked up the wiki a few times, because he got interested months before early access.

Yes, ofcourse, having tutorials and a way for new player to engage is very important, but it is seperate matter form building entire gameplay and focusing al lefforts to new and casual players.What im cautioning against is focusing on new player retention over having depth of game and what actually got most of core players into the game originally.
EB diverted almost all efforts away from things that close aplha testers expected to be worked on, and it wasnt even necessary for new and casual players, becouse they could have easly been satisfied by having ships to buy.

 

[Distuth]

Yes, ofcourse, having tutorials and a way for new player to engage is very important, but it is seperate matter form building entire gameplay and focusing al lefforts to new and casual players.What im cautioning against is focusing on new player retention over having depth of game and what actually got most of core players into the game originally.
EB diverted almost all efforts away from things that close aplha testers expected to be worked on, and it wasnt even necessary for new and casual players, becouse they could have easly been satisfied by having ships to buy.

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I came in knowing very little about the game, and easy build made it a lot easier to understand mechanics, because I could literally slap stuff together and have it work, and then later go looking at the design to see WHY it worked. I would not design ships now if easy build did not exist. I would have been too freaked out by the complexity if I faced it all at once.

Don't assume something isn't necessary because you don't see the point of it.

 

[Tomasz]

They already had fuctioning ship builder.That was their main focus earleir, and they had it done.That was also the main focus point of the game for a long time.
And instead of working on parts of the game that were lacking - they started to work on second , pararell way of building ships - divverted al ltheir devs to that , ahd they are stil lworking on that.
How much stuff was not completed becouse of this?
Where are player station shops.Station sieged.ACTUAL PLAYER STATIONS and factories for HEAVENs sake?
Those things were advertised as DONE or almost done and THAT was expected to be worked on after early acess.
I bought the game planning to buld MY SHOP on a station plot becouse THAT was shown as game direction.Instead they added easly bugged mode noone asked for, noone expected and they are stil lworking on it year later when almost everyone stopped playing becouse they din;t even add mechanic to find players a year later.

 

[Solonerus]

I don't intend to be inflammatory, but Starbase really does need to broaden its audience to survive. While I understand most of us are here for 'hardcore mechanics', it's become increasingly clear that is not enough to sustain pop on a PvP MMO.

I get what you're saying, invoking Robocraft is a strong point, however, Starbase is in a situation now where we're losing 10% pop a month. We're down to less than 200 players on average, even after the big PTU patch. We could probably do with some more softening to target more 'casual' players.

 

[Foraven]

The funny thing about this game being a PVP MMO is that no part of the tutorial cover actual fighting. No introduction to hand held weapons and obviously no piloting of fighting ships.

 

[DivineEvil]

The funny thing about this game being a PVP MMO is that no part of the tutorial cover actual fighting. No introduction to hand held weapons and obviously no piloting of fighting ships.

Agree to some extent. I'd be hard-pressed to imagine how a tutorial can introduce a player to ship combat, especially without the NPC mechanics in place (could at least offer passive target practice otherwise). A tutorial chain would have to expand quite a long way to reach the ship weapons given their position in the technology tree.

Now then, hand-held weapons wouldn't be that much of an issue. Just using the same principles that job halls offer, giving a player a basic target practice should not be all that difficult. In perspective, having a duel/touranment hall for players to fight one-another for a credit pool would go a long way to familiarize players with firearms and will also serve a purpose as a fun way to spend time, for example while crafting (or refining) is in process.

 

[Foraven]

Agree to some extent. I'd be hard-pressed to imagine how a tutorial can introduce a player to ship combat, especially without the NPC mechanics in place (could at least offer passive target practice otherwise). A tutorial chain would have to expand quite a long way to reach the ship weapons given their position in the technology tree.

Now then, hand-held weapons wouldn't be that much of an issue. Just using the same principles that work halls offer, giving a player a basic target practice should not be all that difficult. In perspective, having a duel/touranment hall for players to fight one-another for a credit pool would go a long way to familiarize players to firearms and will also serve a purpose for a fun way to spend time, for example while crafting (or refining) is in process.

They could make some parkour type exercise where you have to reach a goal, shoot stuff, reach another goal etc while evaluating how long it takes you to make it. The same could be made for ships (in a much larger arena) where you have to fly your ship around obstacles, shoot targets along the way and maybe be told to shoot key point on a derelict ship... That would not replace fighting other players but that would allow players to practice some basics so they are not too incompetent when the real thing happens. Also, I like your idea of duel tournaments, that could be some special arenas in origin stations where individuals or groups could fight it out for credits or just the fun of it. I don't think it would be too hard to implement for the devs as the basic technology for it already exist in game.

 

[DivineEvil]

They could make some parkour type exercise where you have to reach a goal, shoot stuff, reach another goal etc while evaluating how long it takes you to make it. The same could be made for ships (in a much larger arena) where you have to fly your ship around obstacles, shoot targets along the way and maybe be told to shoot key point on a derelict ship... That would not replace fighting other players but that would allow players to practice some basics so they are not too incompetent when the real thing happens. Also, I like your idea of duel tournaments, that could be some special arenas in origin stations where individuals or groups could fight it out for credits or just the fun of it. I don't think it would be too hard to implement for the devs as the basic technology for it already exist in game.

Ship objectives create implications for those associated objectives - obstacles, shooting targets and whatnot. Spawning them in the opens space might interfere with the flight of other players, although there's plenty of unneded space behind the origin stations that can be used for that.

But yeah, the space of the module akin to Ship Design Hall would be plenty for some firearm action. For target practice you don't even need to count how long it takes for the player to clear it - finishing it faster would simply mean getting credits reward faster, just like it works for Mining/Salvaging jobs. You'd have a choice of practice between an Assault Rifle, Long Rifle and the Shotgun, and would need to strike the targets activated at appropriate ranges. For tournaments, you'd just be able to start a tournament by choosing the mode (DM, TDM or CTF), the spawn tickets or winning goal, and the per-player bet which constitutes a reward for the winner(s). Then it would start a timer with station-wide notification about the rules for other players to join if they want. Perhaps these would start with a single basic area design with more designs introduced over time.

 

[Foraven]

Ship objectives create implications for those associated objectives - obstacles, shooting targets and whatnot. Spawning them in the opens space might interfere with the flight of other players, although there's plenty of unneded space behind the origin stations that can be used for that.

I think that just like all the current training areas, this should be enclosed and instanced so players can practice without interference. Maybe this could be a special station dedicated for this. Such station could also be used for ship race events (with no risk of being interrupted by trouble makers).

But yeah, the space of the module akin to Ship Design Hall would be plenty for some firearm action. For target practice you don't even need to count how long it takes for the player to clear it - finishing it faster would simply mean getting credits reward faster, just like it works for Mining/Salvaging jobs.

Yeah but having a chono does help individuals know if they are getting better at it. The goal isn't the rewards at the end but getting better at moving around, shooting targets quickly and maybe learn a few useful tactics. Many of us have played shooters before but that's not the case of everyone coming to Starbase.

You'd have a choice of practice between an Assault Rifle, Long Rifle and the Shotgun, and would need to strike the targets activated at appropriate ranges.

Shooting range style training would not be very engaging for most players, it's not like pointing our guns at a target is any real challenge. However, having one or several parkour to master with high scores you can compare to could be much more interesting (and useful to train people). It's different to learning how to demolish a ship or mine asteroids, you not only want players to know how to do those things but you want them to be competent at it. It will improve the PvP experience for everyone.

For tournaments, you'd just be able to start a tournament by choosing the mode (DM, TDM or CTF), the spawn tickets or winning goal, and the per-player bet which constitutes a reward for the winner(s). Then it would start a timer with station-wide notification about the rules for other players to join if they want. Perhaps these would start with a single basic area design with more designs introduced over time.

Tournaments are more like events organized in advance than what you describe. I think what you refer to is more like on the fly matches that can happen with whoever is around to play. Tournaments on other hand is something that could end up becoming an E-Sport of sort with recurrent teams.

 

[Tomasz]

The funny thing about this game being a PVP MMO is that no part of the tutorial cover actual fighting. No introduction to hand held weapons and obviously no piloting of fighting ships.

This is becouse dedicating all the time to creating secondary way of building ships, they had no time to implement acual pvp.
There is just non-functional barebone ability to do damage to ships, and thats it.
Still no mechanic to find targets, no hotspots and no point in doing any pvp.
So you have pvp/building mmo with no pvp.
Obviously there would be no tutorial to something they haven;t even added to the game.

 

[Solonerus]

I mean. We had a PvP hotspot, Robur, it used to have dozens of people there every day. They removed it on launch :/

 

[Foraven]

I mean. We had a PvP hotspot, Robur, it used to have dozens of people there every day. They removed it on launch :/

They really need to bring that back...