The Auction House Problem

Joined
Aug 18, 2021
Messages
13
#1
(Cross-posted from reddit)

tl;dr: Replace the current origin-centralized and omnipresent auction house with physical player-owned storefronts to allow for more variety in the economy and more gameplay opportunities.

The Problems:
  • Currently, there are pretty much only two ways to exchange your hard-earned goods for credits: NPC origin shops and the auction house.
    The NPC origin shops serve to create a default minimum value for every product to prevent them from crashing into the ground, so those can be left alone for the most part. The auction house, on the other hand, is where things start getting a little more complicated.
  • As it stands, the auction house is currently a magical, omnipresent (at least at origins) system.
    Right now, the only viable way to trade is to can float your goods into the aether for a fixed price and hope someone else buys. If someone is selling Bastium for 2300 credits, then I have no choice but to either match or undercut that price, since there's nowhere else to sell other than at the default minimum price. (Yes, players can trade independently, but this is far and few between, and also prone to scams and other such trust issues which may discourage manual bartering).
  • Since it is unknown if there are plans to bring auction house functionality to player stations or the moon cities, we can assume that this is currently the only viable way to trade between players at the moment.
  • Thus, having essentially a single hub for all trade results in only a single price at any given time for basically all items. Unless I'm searching specifically for bulk offers to reduce the time spent clicking, I'm always going to take whatever offer's the cheapest, because... why wouldn't I? So then, what's stopping players from engaging in a near-endless trade war of continuously undercutting each other's prices as they slowly approach that default minimum value? At that point, why even bother with the auction house when it might be faster and easier to just sell to the NPC shop?

My Solution:
  • Require Players to Physically Transport Items to Trading Locations
    Instead of letting players use their magic station inventories to magically teleport goods into some system where they can instantly be exchanged, I'd like to see the introduction of physical trading locations in stations and moon cities where storefronts can be created, rented, and managed. This would decentralize the economy and allow for different places to sell things at different prices rather than everyone being a slave to what the lowest price currently is. This would also allow for trade to be possible at places other than just the origins, allowing the playerbase to spread out beyond the confines of the starting ringle.
  • Storefronts
    Storefronts would be physical locations where goods can be put up for sale. They would feature an internal inventory to which items can be transferred to and from the station/city inventory to be put up for sale at fixed prices. They would also feature trading terminals that function similarly to the auction house where all available wares as well as their stocks and prices would be displayed and could be bought. Players would also be able to create their own buy orders to which others could sell to, which could even be further expanded to allow for bartering for non-credit items, such as trading one ore directly for another or other valuable commodities. Finally, similar to the currently defunct origin stores, they would also offer cosmetic furniture items like display cases and racks to further customize the look of your storefront, which could also offer some monetization opportunities.
  • Storefront Creation and Management
    In public areas like the origins and moon cities, open bazaars will exist where one can temporarily rent a premade storefront for quick and easy selling of goods. There will probably have to be some kind of instancing shenanigans going on to allow for larger amounts of stores, but otherwise players will be free to open their own shops instead of being forced to use a single centralized auction house. Private areas like player stations would instead allow players to make their own custom storefronts using the same station-building tools currently available. Player stations would also have the option to rent space out to other players as well, allowing them to earn a small tax on goods sold and allowing for those who don't want to go through the trouble of making their own station to instead set up shop at someone else's. This performed on large enough numbers could even create entire hubs of trade separate from the origin stations.

The Pros:
  • Variable Pricing
    The current economy is exceeding simple, as there is pretty much only one price listed for an item at any given time. Prices may rise and fall over time, but unless you're some sort of psychopath, you're more than likely just going to buy whatever the lowest available offer is. Requiring trading to occur at physical locations instead of a centralized and omnipresent system would allow for shops to offer items at different prices depending on the supply/demand of the local market instead of a single boring price that can't be changed unless someone undercuts it. This also introduces the ability to potentially make bigger profits by buying up items from a place where they are abundant and selling them to one where that item is more scarce, aligning with how markets work in the real world.
  • Introduction of More Gameplay Options and Player Interaction
    Variable pricing would make mercantile gameplay a much more viable option alongside store management. Due to the requirement of physical transport of goods, trade outposts and trade routes would also have to be secured, introducing more piracy and anti-piracy opportunities than just camping the edge of safe space. Things such as caravans and bodyguarding would also become viable options due to the necessity of physical transport. This would also bring in more demand for larger cargo ships, and consequently more ships for both attacking and protecting them. The idea for this system actually mostly comes from my time roleplaying as a merchant in the Mount & Blade games, where each city had different prices for goods based on local scarcity and market fluctuations. You had to actually listen for (potentially inaccurate) rumors on the market prices in other cities and suss out whether or not the risk vs. reward was great enough to invest in those products and make the journey. Of course, this being an mmo, the depth of such gameplay becomes so much wider as a result of having far more variables at hand to deal with.
  • More Public Stations
    Right now, a large majority of stations are private, whether to a company or solo players. This is mostly because there really isn't a reason to give away your position to others, especially considering that there isn't much reason to visit another player's station. Physical trade locations would become that reason, as players could open their stations to others for the purpose of selling goods or renting lots, becoming hubs of travel to spice up the current emptiness of space. For an mmo, there really isn't much interaction with other players at the moment beyond the very occasional instances of pvp or coming across someone afk at one of the origin facilities. Since anyone within 2 km of the origin stations can access the auction house, more often than not we have ships just floating around the station, not interacting with each other at all. More reasons to travel to other stations would also become more reasons to deck out your station to make it look more appealing to incoming travelers (which will also allow for more cosmetics to be sold hint hint wink wink).

The Cons:
  • Item Exclusivity
    While I would love to have this idea implemented as soon as possible, there is a lot of groundwork that would have to be done to make it a reality. For example, there would have to be a lot more location-specific items, gathering methods, and specialized manufacturing processes to create exclusivity. Currently, most items are very widely available, partly due to a lack of demand, but also because of resources being only distance-based, which means anyone with a decent ship and enough time to burn can go out and bring those resources back. More variety in items would create exclusivity between areas of space, giving an actual reason to ferry cargo to and from different locations, since not every item will be readily available.
  • Prerequisite Systems
    There are also a lot of systems that would still need to be implemented before an economy overhaul would be within sight. Inventory 2.0 would introduce the ability to haul items and not just ore. Station functionality is also a must if we want to eventually leave the origin ringle and become truly self-sufficient. This means things like the ability to access the SSC, insurance transfer facilities, factories and other manufacturing processes, rentable lots, player ship shops, and other things to separate ourselves from the origins. These systems also tie into solving the previous problem of not enough item variety as stations become more specialized in what they can produce.
  • Too Small a Playerbase
    Contrary to my section on Issues, one of the biggest pros of the current auction house system is that it's a magical and omnipresent system. Considering the relatively small playerbase the game has at the moment, this is really the only viable option, especially considering that the playerbase is also split across different timezones and has clear primetimes of currently online players. For a physical shop system to work, there would need to be enough players to support having a decentralized economy system, since even if we get the ability to open our own shops, it'll be for nothing there's no one to come along and buy. The ability to simply put an item up for sale on every origin station simultaneously greatly raises the chances that at least eventually a buyer might come along.
  • Too Large A Playerbase
    Now in contrast to my previous point, having too many players would also pose a problem, especially to public areas like the origins and moon cities. Open bazaars are a good idea in concept, but also likely need to implement some sort of instancing system once the amount of player storefronts becomes too much. A good solution for this problem comes from the game Phantasy Star Online 2, which also features public player-run shops. PSO2 allows players to simply search for the items they want, and be given a list of stores that sell that item and for what prices. The problem with that, however, is that we now come again full-circle to everyone undercutting each other until the default minimum price is reached. My hope with this system is that such a problem will only be a local one that exists at particularly large trade hubs, since the decentralizing of trade would allow for prices to fluctuate between different locations.
  • Advertisement Spam
    No one wants to be obliterated by a deluge of people advertising their shops, and while something like a market channel for the chat and forums could be implemented, it would also introduce a lot of moderation work. However, these issues have already been dealt with in other games with a player-run economy, so I don't think this is too much of a problem.

Anyway, if you've made it this far, thanks for listening to my ted talk and all that, and please offer any other constructive criticism or ideas you might have. While I do enjoy the study and discussion of game design, I'm also certainly not perfect myself, so there's more than likely some major glaring issue just waiting to ruin my day.

Cheers,
- Lan
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2021
Messages
133
#2
- What I like about your suggestion is players, having their own auction houses. This will be the most hudge boost to the economy gameplay part.
- What i dont like is "physical transportaion of goods within the station". It will be a mess! Transporting goods between stations with risc to loose your stuff in the process is good. The game is ment to be about raiding/defending space caravans. It is an itneresitng thing to do within big scales. And not fun at all to drive a 200+ crate hauler through tight station coridors when other 1000+ players are trying to do the same thing.
- The idea of "bazzar" is both good and bad. It's good for selling uinique things like ships, licenses and blueprints. A ship bazzar with some kind of fighting-pit to test combat ships in it's heart is spectacular, interesting and handy. You just slowly fly around it, looking at the beauty of the community's mind, manifested in exclusive ship desighns untill you fall in love with one of them... That's why i actually bought the game. But spending an hour at the station trying to find cheapest bastium ore is tolally pointless.
My vision of trade:
- 1. several station invenories. An inventory for each station just like it works now.
- 2. Storage-blocks for stations. T-1 just expands your inventory. T-2 secure storage. Can be rented or sold to other players. T-3 AH-vault. Makes it possible to open your own AH. Has a limited capacity. Youll have to build several of those to make the trade thrive.
- 3. AH-broadcast antenna. A block that consumes energy and makes it possible to view pricing and manage items in your staion inventory and access the AH if your ship is in the broadcast range, has a reciever and an auctuion chip (maybe a unique chip for each station or fraction). By "manage" i mean not put something into your hands while you are 1000km away. I mean you just can sell something you have brought to the station yestoday without having to fly all the way to it just to push the "sell" button. Also this block tells the players where to fly to get the best price for their goos.
- 4. Contracts system and raiting. I'm not a loyer. So my vision of contracts is primitive. Contacts are in-game money/resource transactions between players when the contractis done resources are transfered within staion inventories (they have to be at the same station) or money is transfered wherever.
Delivery contract:
deilver something. Get your reward. If your fail - pay a fine.
Escort contract:
The escorted ship must get to the safe zone full and with thrusters and expensive devices, the driver must be alive. If the driver (or his friend*) kills himself or destroys the ship (e.g shoots the tanks or rams himself into a rock) the contract is cancelled. If the player (or friends) shoot the escort and the escrot members vote that it was not an exident - the contract is cancelled. If the escort shoots the player and he considers it not an exident - the escort's raiting drops. The escort pays according to damage delt.
*friend - company member, party member, a player form his friend-list.
Crew (or pirate) contract:
The capitan (the player, who owns and thus risks his ship) hires the crew-member. Profit from anything put in the crates after hiring the crew-member is shared between the player and the captian. If the crew member dameges something the capitan decides if it was by exident. If the crew member is kicked form the party right before the looting (the captian can be a jerk), he still gets his share if at least one of his bullets hit an enemy player or ship. Several if capitans are in the party they also share any profit from loot they get after the party is formed.
---
If anything interesting (like damage delt or taken by the ship happens), after completing both sides of the contract give each other 1-5 raiting, just like visitor-feedback in a cafe. If nothing happened during the mission - no raiting changes. Damage, caused by friendly fire is not "interestuing" unless it's considered a violation of the contract.

So every player will have pirate, delivery, escort. Maybe also some kind of "jerk" raiting - thr more contracts the player breaks, the more the jerk raiting is. And combat raiting - automatically calculalted when player's bullet hits something.
---
I think that having trade between stations, contacts between players and some kind of manufacturing process is enough to create economy.
 
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Salbris

Learned-to-turn-off-magboots endo
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
47
#3
I think this is a no-brainer. I don't think the devs had any intention of keeping the origin stations as the only trade hub. That being said I don't think I've ever seen any official word on this matter...

One thing that worries me is that capital ships seemed to be designed to be the "meta choice" for long distance hauling. According to information available they sound like they will be quite OP. They may be what facilitates having multiple trade hubs as currently you need a ship large enough to hold a fast travel core and all your crates.
 
Joined
Aug 18, 2021
Messages
13
#4
- What I like about your suggestion is players, having their own auction houses. This will be the most hudge boost to the economy gameplay part.
- What i dont like is "physical transportaion of goods within the station". It will be a mess! Transporting goods between stations with risc to loose your stuff in the process is good. The game is ment to be about raiding/defending space caravans. It is an itneresitng thing to do within big scales. And not fun at all to drive a 200+ crate hauler through tight station coridors when other 1000+ players are trying to do the same thing.
- The idea of "bazzar" is both good and bad. It's good for selling uinique things like ships, licenses and blueprints. A ship bazzar with some kind of fighting-pit to test combat ships in it's heart is spectacular, interesting and handy. You just slowly fly around it, looking at the beauty of the community's mind, manifested in exclusive ship desighns untill you fall in love with one of them... That's why i actually bought the game. But spending an hour at the station trying to find cheapest bastium ore is tolally pointless.
I do admit that at large stations, having individual player stores might be a drag without some sort of instancing shenanigans, maybe even with a PSO2-like search system for finding stores with the relevant items. I also admit that even with that solution it might even end up not too dissimilar to how the auction house currently functions.


Now then, here's my carefully thought-out rebuttal:

It would be really cool.

Now before you smite me where I stand, let me elaborate a little. Yes, it would be far easier to just have a single auction house at every station from which everyone can do trade in a simple and efficient manner. The problem with such a solution, however, is that it's painfully boring. As of right now, all that is required to do trade on the open market is:
  1. Be within 2km of a station (only origins for now, but I'm extrapolating for when player auction houses or their equivalent is a thing).
  2. Magically transport items from your ship inventory into the station since you're not required to dock to a resource bridge to transfer goods.
  3. Press the comma key, thereby instantly giving you access to the entire station's open market
  4. Either put an item up for sale or buy an item, from which it will be transferred instantly from/to your station inventory in exchange for credits
  5. ???
  6. Profit
My problems with the above are the following:
  • There is next to no player interaction during the process. Trading currently takes the form of staring at a screen over the course of potentially multiple days as you watch the prices of various items rise and fall. You can make millions without ever having to so much as look at another player. I know that there's a trend going on with modern MMOs when it comes to being basically single-player games in disguise, but c'mon. We're better than that.
  • No in-world explanation for how the system works. Perhaps this will change when player stations gain more functionality, but at the moment, you can magically transfer items in and out of your inventory as long as you're within range of a station. Now, maybe this is the space engineers player in me, but where's are the ship docks? Where are the resource bridge connections? The only structures you can actually dock at are the ore towers, and those are pretty much only used to refill fuel. You make the point of having it be a pain to fly your massive ships through stations, but honestly, that's the coolest part of them to me. Having a ship so large that it requires an entirely different class of dock or even station to accommodate for their size. As it stands, the only downsides to owning an overly large ship are having more surface area to bump into asteroids and maybe fuel problems, but that's cheap enough to essentially be a non-issue.
  • Finally, stations are pretty dead atm. There's a lot of essential buildings to visit, but you hardly see anyone outside of the NPC shop and the shipbuilding areas. Otherwise, everyone else is just in orbit around the station. I think physical player shops would bring a lot more foot traffic to the stations and give them the true mmo aspect they've kinda been lacking lately. I think player-made shops would also bring a lot of customization options that would currently only be available at your own station. Being able to bring a taste of that to the origins, moon cities, and other public areas would allow for some really unique architecture, made even cooler by the fact that it is player-made.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2021
Messages
133
#5
I'm not going to smite you! I was arguing with anti-vacciners in social networks, you know. Comapered to them, an average starbase player is an angel :)
- Maybe you are right that unloading your stuff to the stations is too magical and this should not be possible at least outside the origin stations. To drop ores into the station storage only through ore-towes or similar structures seems fair enough. And it will also encourage the station owners to design parking-areas comfortable for all. A special faiclity for docking the captial ships is also cool. The unloading process could be not instant, but take some time depending on how smart and reach the station owner is. The more "unloaders" work at a time, the higher their tier and the closer they are to the crates (the toughest challenge) - the faster the (un)loading goes. And the happier is the client. To make your dock more fast and power-efficient is an engeneering challenge. And SB players love engeneerring.
- The in-station logistics like planning conveyor lines, sorters and ore-processing could be a great engeneering challenge and a factory-building game of it's own kind. like Satisfactory or Factorio. The devs say there will be alloys and ore procesing. I hope the process will not be too magical and we all will have much factory-planning fun.
- "There is next to no player interaction during the [trade] process. " - I don't think there shoud be! The players came here to make and blow up ships, not to trade. So the best way to attract them is not a market, but an arena, whre you shoot each other on foot with infantry weapons or take part in a rented ship dogfight without loosing your own ship. The posibilty to watch the fights, organise tournaments and make bets would also be cool.
The players want to go on collective missions so the way to attract them to the station is some kind of crew-hiring place where you can wait for a ship to take you on a mission.
The players want to form
powerful clans. So clan-recruitment areas with clans showing-off and/or selling their stuff, desctibing their glorious achievements and maginficent ambitions will naturally lead to unique architecture. And player interest.
 
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Joined
Aug 18, 2021
Messages
13
#7
- "There is next to no player interaction during the [trade] process. " - I don't think there shoud be! The players came here to make and blow up ships, not to trade. So the best way to attract them is not a market, but an arena, whre you shoot each other on foot with infantry weapons or take part in a rented ship dogfight without loosing your own ship. The posibilty to watch the fights, organise tournaments and make bets would also be cool.
The players want to go on collective missions so the way to attract them to the station is some kind of crew-hiring place where you can wait for a ship to take you on a mission.
The players want to form
powerful clans. So clan-recruitment areas with clans showing-off and/or selling their stuff, desctibing their glorious achievements and maginficent ambitions will naturally lead to unique architecture. And player interest.
I'm interested in why you think no one would be interested in trading gameplay. You seem so sure that absolutely no one would want to engage in mercantile gameplay, and I'm not really sure why, considering I'm one of them, and most certainly not the last. If this game wasn't meant to have trade as an option, then we would all be buying from NPC shops and all trade would happen peer-to-peer instead of through an auction house. I've already made my point in the original post why I think that more in-depth mercantile gameplay would be a good idea, but I'll reiterate them here just in case:
  1. More incentive to visit other player's stations. As of yet, there is absolutely zero reason to go to someone else's station unless you're either raiding it (once station sieges become a thing) or friends with the station's owner. In fact, it's probably a better idea to stay away from other stations since their owners might not like you coming near. Allowing players to open their own stores as well as rent space to others to allow them to do the same would bring a lot more player interaction to the currently dead game environment. It's no secret that the playerbase is meant to eventually move away from the origins and strike it out on their own. I think that having more incentives for players to create their own societies among the stars can only turn out to be a good thing for both the enjoyment of players and the longevity of the game as a whole. This also gives more incentive to open your station to passerbys, as well as trick it out to make it more appealing rather than just having the bare minimum facilities.
  2. Mercantile Gameplay. As it turns out, introducing better trade systems makes for better mercantile gameplay. Who woulda guessed. As for what that actually means, there will be ways to make money other than strictly mining (and maybe combat/salvaging, but neither are very profitable atm). While player auction houses might also solve this problem, having individual player stores will allow for variable pricing to happen on a smaller scale as well. The auction house currently has the problem of centralizing the whole of a station's commerce, which means that there's effectively only a single price at any given time for any given item. The only way to sell at any different price would be to undercut the current lowest or move to a different station. While I'm sure the prospect of comparing the prices of items at various stores and stations to make the most amount of money possible isn't everyone's cup of tea, merely having the option opens the door to inviting those kinds of players and ensures that a variety of people can enjoy the game instead of only those who want to mine, build, or shoot.
  3. Player Recognition. Sure, you can sell stuff just as easily at the auction house, but what if you wanted to make a name for yourself? Become a well-known source of a certain ore/item? There's currently no way to know exactly who is selling stuff on the auction house, so you'd kind of be out of luck. And let's say that player stations get an auction house feature. Well then there's no way of stopping people from just infinitely undercutting your own items! A centralized market means that even if the person who undercut you runs out of stock, there's still no stopping someone else from undercutting that person as well, leading to a never-ending spiral until the default price is reached. Allowing players to own discrete storefronts will allow them to ensure their own items can be displayed at a fixed price rather than being shunted off the auction screen after a couple hours. If you're able to secure a steady supply of a certain item, then it makes sense to sell it at a fixed price rather than having to compete with other players who might only have a couple of that item to pawn off.
  4. Non-Mercantile Gameplay. Trading doesn't have to be the end of it! Mercantile gameplay allows for much more than just people shuttling around resources to make a profit. You have to consider that someone's gotta ferry that stuff around, and that brings a whole slew of opportunities on its own. Pirates might attack trade routes between well-populated trading outposts, which will also incentivize traders to either hire bodyguards or even travel as a caravan as opposed to alone. If a trader doesn't want to take the time to carry their goods themselves, then they can pay someone else to do it for them. Just like in real life, couriers will have to remain trustworthy in order to keep getting offers, so while scams will probably exist, the risk will be in the trader's hands. A lot of these actually line up with your own idea for contract/hauling missions, but the thing here is *player-driven interactions*, rather than something mandated to you by the system.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2021
Messages
133
#8
Oh, no! English is not my native language so maybe i did not explain something clearly enough.
I'm not against player to player thrade as such. Quite the opposit. Trade is the best catalyst of wars, piracy, exploration, forging corporations and other fun stuff. Besides, i want to make my own space gas station and a ship shop.

What i'm against is:
1. need for the player to be present in the shop to keep it active. Maybe no one suggested it, but i understood it this way. My shop should run 24*7 if it has goods to sell. No matter if i'm online or not. The player should not have to choose between trade and other activities. Back in early 2000s there was an MMO-game called "Perfect World". There was an auction and player shops. The player literlly had to stand and trade. So the main main square of the capital was a laggy mess of shops. And the players just turned the game on and went to work. That was not handy at all.
2. physically moving goods inside the station this leads to nothing but stress and traffic jams. The idea of mandatory docking your ship to (un)load yor cargo and non-magical (un)loading mechanics seems fair and good to me. But I'm absolutely convinced that once the stuff is in the staion inventory the station should handle the rest.
3. need to construct shops for non-unique goods (like parts of materials). Driving through 100+ ore shops at a single station is bad.

How i see the role of player-made stations:
They are shops, gas stations, rented areas, facotries and repair docks. And auction houses, owned by players. I think the devs anounced all this, so we can just wait.
 
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