Research + Crafting Progression Values WAY too high

[Atreties]

Edit 8/19 -

At this point after multiple patches, I find the crafting tree values to be in a fairly high, but acceptable range. I think getting Blue is a bit steep and difficult, but given that unlocks PvP things, I understand.

EDIT:
The values have been slashed to about 40% of the previous values, on average. This is a good start, but values are STILL too high.

Before, it required an insane, completely over-the-top grind to unlock anything. Now, it requires a very annoying, unnecessary grind to unlock anything. Better, but still far from where it should be.

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The research tree design is fine, but the values to unlock each object are OBSCENELY high. All this will lead to is players finding one efficient thing to spam an insane amount of, way more than they will ever need, just to progress one tiny more step.

And by too high, i mean easily 5x or even 10x too high.

To give a very common example, which is the exact situation I now find myself in for progression:

Let's say you have unlocked thrusters, and have decked out the starter ship with a dozen box thusters, 72+ ore crates, and you want want to upgrade (to) a ship with mining lasers.

In order to be able to unlock the ability to craft those 3 things, you need the following unlocked:

Cockpit Modules
Material Point Scanner
Ore Collector
Mining Laser

All combined, those cost 16k red, 9k yellow, and 17k purple research.

So, you stock up on useful components. Ore crates give decent red, while box and triangle thrusters give good purple. You look around for a good source of Yellow research. Looks like Main Flight computer is your best option.

It would take you:
410 modular ore crates
90 box thrusters (some can be triangle if you prefer)
95 Main Flight computers (which are then almost entirely useless)


Also, this crafting would take over 3.5 HOURS to complete

Just to unlock the ability to make mining lasers.

Put simply, this is ludicrous. No exaggeration whatsoever - this is 10 times the amount it should be.

 

[Fewuser]

I completely agree with this. Its a good system in of itself, but the absolutely ludicrous values make it feel more like a way to artificially inflate the grind time of it. It simply is not fun to spam out random garbage you would hardly ever use, assuming you need 95 flight computers in the first place.

 

[Waselon]

Yeah its a bit too much... Lauri said we wont waste resources yet I have to craft a lot of useless items just to be able to craft fuel rods and basic tools.

Also on crafting part. I see printers got removed. I would like to see them return and be tied to workbench/factory to boost crafting speed. That would be awesome.

 

[gitlitwitit]

fully agree

 

[Fewuser]

I think overall it just wasnt a very good design choice, especially with it being absent in CA and suddenly thrown on us. Its values are just through the roof. To the point if its not changed Im genuninely considering quitting.

 

[Caddrel]

I'm genuinely surprised the developers haven't already hotfixed this. It makes a terrible impression on new players; one of the final things they're told from the tutorial is to progress through research. The answer to the question, "How do I make my starting ship a bit faster?" is "craft hundreds of items you don't need".

It was a clear issue on day 1, and you can see increasing number of players become aware of just how badly designed this part of the game is:

https://www.reddit.com/r/starbase/comments/ov21i6 https://www.reddit.com/r/starbase/comments/ouywth https://www.reddit.com/r/starbase/comments/ouwlo5

 

[Atreties]

The values have been slashed to about 40% of the previous values, on average. This is a good start, but values are STILL too high.

Before, it required an insane, completely over-the-top grind to unlock anything. Now, it requires a very annoying, unnecessary grind to unlock anything. Better, but still far from where it should be.

 

[Fewuser]

The values have been slashed to about 40% of the previous values, on average. This is a good start, but values are STILL too high.

Before, it required an insane, completely over-the-top grind to unlock anything. Now, it requires a very annoying, unnecessary grind to unlock anything. Better, but still far from where it should be.

Absolutely agree, its a start that shows they are listening, but its far far to high still. As you said it went from near impossible for any one person to unlock the whole tree to, "you must now quit your job".

 

[8lock]

Hi all. First post and completely new to Starbase.

I just completed the crafting/build tutorial and made 2x "4 block container" something. And my immediate reaction when I started making the items was something like "this is the first item I craft, and it is takes this long? I can't imagine how much time it is going to take for other stuff".

First impression up until this point had been very good, but the crafting part made me worried about how grindy this game might be.

 

[Fewuser]

Hi all. First post and completely new to Starbase.

I just completed the crafting/build tutorial and made 2x "4 block container" something. And my immediate reaction when I started making the items was something like "this is the first item I craft, and it is takes this long? I can't imagine how much time it is going to take for other stuff".

First impression up until this point had been very good, but the crafting part made me worried about how grindy this game might be.

As far as I know they are tweaking the values, not enough IMO, but they are changing them

 

[Venombrew]

im honestly not seeing a problem with this setup other than a few changes here and there. i got pretty much all early ship requirements unlocked including fuel rods, im working on weapons right now. everything i craft and dont need i make credits off of it through Auction House or Terminal Store. ive upgraded my laborer to 26 crates and reinforced the outer area with plates for protection and style, and im about to add more thrusters to it. even without the new thrusters i barely noticed a change in my speed. Twelve runs going for the right ore is what got me to this point and i am sitting on over 100k credits just from AH and terminal vendor while i craft, and that isn't including the ore i sold i didnt need. and if you look at my hours on steam, not that high considering a huge chunk of that time is helping friends and strangers to do what im doing.

they do not want everyone being able to get a gun and a powerful ship in the first 2 hours of game play. this is not closed alpha no more it is open, why research wasn't show to us in CA, to give a more even playing field for starting off with those who werent in CA. why at the end of CA they made it where u need mats and credits to buy a ship. in CA we could take 1 hour to farm ore turn it all in and make about 5-6mil and do whatever we wanted, but were not in CA anymore.

for enthusiastic players i say hang in there, tweaks will come but you need to find your footing first. to those who said "fix it now or im quitting" i say BYE BYE, cause obviously this game isn't for you and i would refrain from future games labeled Early Access. it is not designed to give you everything in a day or a week or even a month, your gonna have to put time in. thats why you can scrap stuff, sell goods out of a store, STEAL AND PIRATE OTHER PEOPLES GOODS, barter with those who have gotten further in the research tree, protect others who want to venture out further, etc. this game is what you make it, and if your gonna sit and pout over things on the 3rd day of Open Alpha before they get proper feedback and implement changes, well i dont know what to tell you other than come back in a month or two.

EDIT: if yuo need parts to a ship, fuel rods, generators, etc, hit me up or hit up another player dont just give up and get angry, they left many avenues for people.

 

[digitaldrifter]

I don't understand the problem.

I collected all the resources and did the tech tree, by myself including a bunch before the reduction in cost. I've gone half way up the 'Advanced' tree already and can build starbases.

I have no idea why people think the 'grind' is too long. I have a total of 21 hours in the game and probably 10 of it was spent learning the nuances of how to avoid bugs and fixing bugs...

How is 10 or 12 hours of gameplay too long of a grind to have access to building your own starbases?

 

[Venombrew]

@digitaldrifter 100% behind you, i am just not seeing or having the problems others are, for me it is running smooth in the crafting area.

 

[8lock]

21h since EA release, is a completely different play style then for many of us. I would be lucky if I get to squeeze in 2, maybe 3h each day.
And during that time I want to have fun and grind as little as possible.

 

[digitaldrifter]

21h since EA release, is a completely different play style then for many of us. I would be lucky if I get to squeeze in 2, maybe 3h each day.
And during that time I want to have fun and grind as little as possible.

Maybe you don't understand what's going on here.

The point is that 21 hours of total playtime, most of which I was doing other things, is not a very long loop for having the ability to literally build my own space station already in an MMO... That is a very short loop imo for such a thing. This isn't a game designed for the person that can only play 2 hours a week to get to building their own space stations in one play session. Join a guild.

You can have everything you need to build a ship from scratch in just a few hours if you know what you're doing. Obviously it's not going to be as efficient when you're new but that's every game.

The tech tree, currently, is even a tad too fast to me after they dropped the requirements so much.

 

[Pho]

whatever the case, I hope things are clear on HOW to progress. Since this is early days, it is hard to know what is truly too much or too little(IMO, don't shoot me). But I am usually not a fan of grinding experiences in multiplayer games anyhow.

 

[digitaldrifter]

whatever the case, I hope things are clear on HOW to progress. Since this is early days, it is hard to know what is truly too much or too little(IMO, don't shoot me). But I am usually not a fan of grinding experiences in multiplayer games anyhow.

It's pretty clear how/what you need to do to progress right now, it's just that progression is a bit wonky cause this form of it is new. It's not hard at all.

There's a dichotomy between grinding and playing any sandbox/crafting style game. Are you playing the game and enjoying it or are you grinding? Maybe you're doing both?

I love the 'grind' in this game so far. It's extremely pleasing aesthetically. The sounds are nice. Grinding isn't 'hard' at all or even tedious, yet. The 'grinding' in this game IS the gameplay with the late game morphing into more PvP minded play. It's fun so far.

Every time a new game comes out that has ANY complexity, whatsoever, the forums, reddit, steam, etc.. all fill to the brim with people complaining about things they don't understand at all which means their complaints are typically inaccurate or just flat out wrong. This game has a few complex systems that are outside the realm of the hand holding most games do and so people are going to throw fits. Eventually all those people will leave. They wouldn't have provided anything meaningful to the game experience for the rest of us beyond money to the devs, which is important but, a sad symptom of designing the game you 'want' to design. We won't miss them, unless the game dies. This is why devs cave to the loudest group of people who can't be arsed to take 1 hour to learn 'how' to do something in game and that it's quite easy/already exists, instead of complaining. They make up the 'majority' of people on the internet playing games.

 

[Pho]

It's pretty clear how/what you need to do to progress right now, it's just that progression is a bit wonky cause this form of it is new. It's not hard at all.

There's a dichotomy between grinding and playing any sandbox/crafting style game. Are you playing the game and enjoying it or are you grinding? Maybe you're doing both?

I love the 'grind' in this game so far. It's extremely pleasing aesthetically. The sounds are nice. Grinding isn't 'hard' at all or even tedious, yet. The 'grinding' in this game IS the gameplay with the late game morphing into more PvP minded play. It's fun so far.

Every time a new game comes out that has ANY complexity, whatsoever, the forums, reddit, steam, etc.. all fill to the brim with people complaining about things they don't understand at all which means their complaints are typically inaccurate or just flat out wrong. This game has a few complex systems that are outside the realm of the hand holding most games do and so people are going to throw fits. Eventually all those people will leave. They wouldn't have provided anything meaningful to the game experience for the rest of us beyond money to the devs, which is important but, a sad symptom of designing the game you 'want' to design. We won't miss them, unless the game dies. This is why devs cave to the loudest group of people who can't be arsed to take 1 hour to learn 'how' to do something in game and that it's quite easy/already exists, instead of complaining. They make up the 'majority' of people on the internet playing games.

yeah interesting and true. So far, I have yet to dive in, as I have some irl junk to sort out, but I'm still excited to play and chill doing low effort stuff most of the time. However I do know that there is a lot of complex parts to the game that you have to give %100 of your attention to. Got to feel it all out for myself, but for now, I hope to see how everyone feels before I jump in. Or maybe I'll just jump in. Is the grind at least mindless enough that I can focus on something else while I do it?

 

[Venombrew]

However I do know that there is a lot of complex parts to the game that you have to give %100 of your attention to.

there is two types of ship building, easy build that help snap to items, run cables for you and bolt for you, sorta like you see in a lot of craft game. you will only be able to make so much with this. then there is what i call the Hard Build, panel to panel, x-beam to x-beam, cables and electrical runs, controls, and yolo programming. that second one is not for novices at all, but is required if you want say a deathstar, dreadnaught, firefly, orville, enterprise, etc. the hard build is where full custom comes in and unique player shops will be the only place to pick up those kind of ships, or commission a builder to do it for you, or learn all of the systems needed, including yolo coding.

 

[Amos.37]

I can see what they're trying to do with the research. Having the values so high means that rather than everyone unlocking everything, players have to specialise in certain branches of the tech tree and then interact with/trade with other players to get the items they can't build themselves.
However, I think putting everything behind an unlock was a bad idea. I think all players should have the basic/tier 1 items unlocked by default, but still have to unlock anything above that.
That way, new players can build ships off the bat without the excessive research grind, but to build good ships still requires specialisation.
The current system of having even the basic stuff behind a research grind is not a good way to retain new players.