How exacltly friction works?

Joined
Aug 25, 2021
Messages
1
#1
From what I have seen our vacuum is actually a liquid which applies force to your ship, value of which depends on the speed and its direction is inverse to your speed vector.

The question is how exactly drag can be computed. My assumption that drag depends on speed only so that big ships stop slower, small ships stops faster, so that from 2nd law of Newton thrusters_force - drag_constant*speed = ship_mass * ship_acceleration. From that we have max speed up to 150 m/s with formula max_speed = thrusters_force/drag_constant but it seem that mass of ship has some value here but I can't figure out which exactly.

Were there any attempts to compute actual formula for drag?
 

Agonarch

Active endo
Joined
Aug 10, 2021
Messages
42
#3
If newton lived in this world he'd hit himself in the head with an apple.

Thrust equations seem to be linear so far as I can tell, they're pretty predictable, drag seems to work the same - my ~178ton racing ship drifts to a stop in ~520 metres, and my 45,000+ton laden freighter was something like 600m last I looked (much better than I expected, and it became a practical way to stop which I use in that design now).
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2021
Messages
1
#4
While space isn't technically a full vacuum and there is some friction its miniscule. That said I think the main reason for this is to help players stop and cap speed.
-If they didn't have drag or friction then max speed would be the same for all ships just acceleration would change based on engines and weight.
-Stopping a ships in a frictionless environment requires extremely precise control. Since we do not have access to a software system that can do this players would essentially never stop. They could get somewhat close but you would never be perfectly still.

I am interested in seeing the formula as well just so its easier to calculate weight. It may be easier to calculate using weight and max speed assuming that it is a constant friction based on weight and not surface area?
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2021
Messages
10
#5
Moin.

Yes, this universe does not seem to have much to do with the universe in which we all live.

Well, the vacuum can't be a real vacuum in the game. Otherwise there would be no sound here and no one would play it without sound. Corrosion resistance would also make no sense in a real vacuum.

However, it would be really interesting to know the composition of this vacuum in order to be able to calculate more precisely. However, there are more problems:

- In the game itself, the engines have no noteworthy information about how much thrust they produce, how much electricity and fuel they use for it and how they and the generators need to be cooled at least. Even at the SSC, figuring out which combination works best is trial and error. Some of the information can be found in the wiki, but it can hardly make sense of the game to spend hours researching the wiki and taking notes before you start building or constantly switch back and forth between the game and browser, or?

- And how can the speed of a ship be understood at all? In relation to the Origin? In relation to the planet? Or related to what? In relation to the planet and the origins in orbit, I imagine it will be difficult. I mean, a planet like that has an escape speed. With Uranus from our universe approaching the planet in Starbase, the escape speed would be around 23 km/s. In contrast, the max. 150 m/s of the ships seem simply ridiculous. And actually you would have to be attracted by the planet and the origins and use most of the power of your engines for a counter-thrust so as not to hit like a projectile.

- In general: where is the gravitation and mass attraction in this universe? How can a piece of rock that I knock out of an asteroid with the pickaxe simply float 5 meters away and then hang there as if nailed to the ground without striving back to the greater mass? And how can I hit such a free-floating piece of rock with a pickaxe and just crumble it instead of flying off like a projectile?

So how, in numbers, does this universe, its vacuum, its rocks and the equipment that can be used in it work?
 

Agonarch

Active endo
Joined
Aug 10, 2021
Messages
42
#6
The wiki is supported by Frozenbyte, it's a useful manual for all the information like thrust until there's more in game - something is planned as I understand it, but isn't in yet (that's not unreasonable for a game in this stage of development and tweaking, remember, minecraft took 6 years before giving you in game info on how to make a crafting table!)

There's a moon with pull if you want to see some gravity, but gravity doesn't work at all like in real life, it's more like it works in Space Engineers.

You can work out some details for most of the questions you're asking about the spacesoup with some simple experimentation in the SSC (build a chronometer with some YOLOL, a ship with a known mass and thrust and fly into it). Detailed numbers like that aren't really necessary though as I hinted before, everything is pretty linear and predictable.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2021
Messages
10
#7
Moin.

Minecraft? No plan, never played it. But as seen on the web its price on first versions was 5,- €. The price for Starbase EA was 33,- €, a price i normally pay for final released games on steam. And for this price in EA i expect much more than staring hours over hours on a blueish screen while slow traveling from the origins to a mineable asteroid or staring hours over hours on a crafting screen, while I stand around as stupid as a hundred meters of dirt road on my station because it cannot leave in crafting without the crafting breaking off. At least i expect, that a feature like SSC provides me all information in need to construct a fully working space ship without having to switch to my browser to gather essential informations from a (developers driven) wiki.

And to be honest, I'm also a little afraid that Starbase could work the same way as it did with 7 Days, the eternal alpha, which after the entusial first 3 years is no longer making any notable progress. Whereby even 7 days in the EA did not even cost 10, - €.

In the end, I only bought Starbase because it was supposed to be a big project in our community. Normally I am not so masochistic as to pay that much money to be abused by the developers as a beta tester.

In return, I have certain expectations. At least even thoose informations, which are not even laboriously programmed, but simply have to be written in the item description instead of in a wiki.
 

Agonarch

Active endo
Joined
Aug 10, 2021
Messages
42
#8
abused by the developers as a beta tester
I wouldn't say you're a beta tester, it's come out of closed alpha, I'd say this is open alpha - you're an alpha tester. The game isn't feature complete yet. None of this should really have been a surprise...

Part of this is on Steam/Valve, I admit, by them putting everything from post v1.0 launches through late betas to early alphas all being advertised as 'Early Access' because they can't be bothered keeping up with the details, I'm sorry if this is the first game that this has happened to you on. :(
 

Womble

Veteran endo
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
177
#9
Yeah. In "classic" development terms, this is definitely an alpha:
  • not feature complete
  • high level of bugs (which includes things that are "exploits" as well as things that stop you doing what you orter be able to do)
  • very frequent updates for major and minor issues.
None of which should be considered a complaint on my part; I think FrozenByte have been completely clear about the state of the game at all times.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2021
Messages
10
#10
Moin.

I wouldn't say you're a beta tester, it's come out of closed alpha, I'd say this is open alpha - you're an alpha tester. The game isn't feature complete yet. None of this should really have been a surprise...
Beta testers, alpha testers, that's ultimately splitting hairs. Here with us, a person is called a beta tester, regardless of the exact stage of the software.

The whole point, however, is that the developer is making players pay a price for this early access to Alpha, on the order of magnitude that one would normally buy ready-made games. For this price, I get a game where most of the features already in it don't really work. And if something doesn't work, the developer expects me to use their feedback tool and tell them in detail what exactly doesn't work in which constellation. So, in effect, I am paying money so that I can search for and document errors for the developer.

The principle is not new (to me). I've bought and played numerous Early Access titles. Some in beta, most in alpha status. The biggest difference is that their price wasn't nearly as outrageous.

And the price of Starbase is outrageous, especially because it is already extremely lengthy in Alpha. You can stare at a milky blue screen for hours while just flying from the Origin to an asteroid field. You have 100 hours together without any problems before you have researched a new technology worth mentioning. And when you've finally researched a new device, you just look at the crafting screen for just as long, because the crafting is extremely lame and you can't even do anything else while doing it. Because if you go just a meter too far from the workbench, the crafting stops.

Testing, finding, documenting and reporting bugs in an Early Access Alpha: OK. But being deliberately slowed down like this: Absolutely not ok. Especially not for this price.

How should you build a laser cannon, for example? Researching the thing alone costs 80,000 yellow points, 80,000 blue points and 60,000 purple points, in total, through the entire research tree up to there, around half a million of each of these points. And parts that give you these points, you have to build in quantities of several hundred pieces in order to get these points. For the construction of these quantities you need resources, which alone cost you 50 or more hours to harvest, sometimes resources that you cannot get in the safe zone, which forces you to leave sz. And if you're unlucky, some crazy people shoot your ship from under your bum just for fun, which means you can spend even more resources and time getting a new ship first. And if you somehow managed to get the resources in the end, it takes another 10 hours to craft the parts until you finally have the scores to go only one step further in the research tree.

Effectively, you can spend 50+ hours in this bug-riddled alpha without making the slightest progress. The developer seriously expects you not only to deal with dozens of bugs, give feedback and write error messages for this comparatively outrageously high price, but also spend 200+ hours in the game. That is why I call myself abused here.

Other Early Access Alpha are significantly cheaper than the final version, because the developers appreciate that you give them feedback. And they don't artificially slow you down when testing. You can research cheaply in the Alpha, move faster and build faster. And when the game goes into release at some point, the servers are wiped and everyone starts from scratch in the final game.

The Starbase EA, on the other hand, is expensive, compared to others, slows you down wherever it can and a wipe should be avoided as far as possible at the end of the EA according to the FAQ. All those who only buy the game when it is released will have a lot of fun ...
 

Womble

Veteran endo
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
177
#11
...Here with us, a person is called a beta tester...
Your opinion. Don't try and foist it off on everyone as fact. Personally, I consider everyone to be an alpha tester.

The whole point, however, is that the developer is making players pay a price for this early access to Alpha, on the order of magnitude that one would normally buy ready-made games. For this price, I get a game where most of the features already in it don't really work...

[wah wah wah]

...price of Starbase is outrageous...
...bug-riddled alpha...
Tautology, anyone? As you now admit: it's an alpha. Alphas are riddled with bugs. And

You
could
easily
have
known
that
before
you
started

The Starbase EA, on the other hand, is expensive, compared to others, slows you down wherever it can and a wipe should be avoided as far as possible at the end of the EA according to the FAQ. All those who only buy the game when it is released will have a lot of fun ...
Ah. Diddums.

If you'd done the slightest bit of research, this wouldn't be a surprise. And if it's not a surprise, why are you complaining? Why do you feel hard-done-by? Just don't pay the price if it's too high. Or take the punt and don't complain when you don't get what you hoped for in spite of all the available evidence.

And if you spend 50 hours in the game, even if you don't "get anywhere", you've just spent about 50cents an hour, and there must've been something keeping you in-game all that time. Hardly expensive, for a "suck-it-and-see" experience. Why the butthurt?
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2021
Messages
10
#12
Moin.

@Womble
Well, obviously you are someone who only jumps at individual buzzwords and is not able to think and understand in a larger context. No problem, there must also be such people. But I don't discuss with such people, because this is an even more useless waste of time and energy than the game itself.

And that's the end of this discussion for me.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2021
Messages
3
#13
Moin.



Beta testers, alpha testers, that's ultimately splitting hairs. Here with us, a person is called a beta tester, regardless of the exact stage of the software.

The whole point, however, is that the developer is making players pay a price for this early access to Alpha, on the order of magnitude that one would normally buy ready-made games. For this price, I get a game where most of the features already in it don't really work. And if something doesn't work, the developer expects me to use their feedback tool and tell them in detail what exactly doesn't work in which constellation. So, in effect, I am paying money so that I can search for and document errors for the developer.

The principle is not new (to me). I've bought and played numerous Early Access titles. Some in beta, most in alpha status. The biggest difference is that their price wasn't nearly as outrageous.

And the price of Starbase is outrageous, especially because it is already extremely lengthy in Alpha. You can stare at a milky blue screen for hours while just flying from the Origin to an asteroid field. You have 100 hours together without any problems before you have researched a new technology worth mentioning. And when you've finally researched a new device, you just look at the crafting screen for just as long, because the crafting is extremely lame and you can't even do anything else while doing it. Because if you go just a meter too far from the workbench, the crafting stops.

Testing, finding, documenting and reporting bugs in an Early Access Alpha: OK. But being deliberately slowed down like this: Absolutely not ok. Especially not for this price.

How should you build a laser cannon, for example? Researching the thing alone costs 80,000 yellow points, 80,000 blue points and 60,000 purple points, in total, through the entire research tree up to there, around half a million of each of these points. And parts that give you these points, you have to build in quantities of several hundred pieces in order to get these points. For the construction of these quantities you need resources, which alone cost you 50 or more hours to harvest, sometimes resources that you cannot get in the safe zone, which forces you to leave sz. And if you're unlucky, some crazy people shoot your ship from under your bum just for fun, which means you can spend even more resources and time getting a new ship first. And if you somehow managed to get the resources in the end, it takes another 10 hours to craft the parts until you finally have the scores to go only one step further in the research tree.

Effectively, you can spend 50+ hours in this bug-riddled alpha without making the slightest progress. The developer seriously expects you not only to deal with dozens of bugs, give feedback and write error messages for this comparatively outrageously high price, but also spend 200+ hours in the game. That is why I call myself abused here.

Other Early Access Alpha are significantly cheaper than the final version, because the developers appreciate that you give them feedback. And they don't artificially slow you down when testing. You can research cheaply in the Alpha, move faster and build faster. And when the game goes into release at some point, the servers are wiped and everyone starts from scratch in the final game.

The Starbase EA, on the other hand, is expensive, compared to others, slows you down wherever it can and a wipe should be avoided as far as possible at the end of the EA according to the FAQ. All those who only buy the game when it is released will have a lot of fun ...


Did you jump on your menstrual cycle? cause if you did I cant tell for sure, because you missed what ever you were aiming at.
 
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