PASSIVE SENSOR TYPES | How to find stuff & a reason to multi-crew

[[TAC] NASA]

As we all know FB is planning to add radiation detection to the game - a passive method of detecting ships and other stuff.

Even though we do not currently know a lot about the devs' plans, I still have a suggestion:

We could have two different types of detectors: a BEARING DETECTOR and a FREQUENCY DETECTOR.
Both of them would output two different variables per contact.

BEARING DETECTOR
The bearing detector would have full 360-degree vision and would give you the bearing of the contact relative to the sensor. It also would give you the intensity of the contact (demonstration below). This would allow you to notice contacts that are close giving you some time to prepare in case of a pirate and giving you some general awareness of what is happening

FREQUENCY DETECTOR
The frequency detector would have a limited cone of vision (25 degrees maybe?) and needs to be pointed in a direction, either via rotating the ship or a turret the sensor is attached to. The frequency detector would be incapable of showing precisely from what bearing the radiation is coming, but it would be able to show a breakdown of different frequencies, allowing one to see ships better than the 360 detector, as it can differentiate signals and can sort out the radiation coming from a reactor from the radiation coming out of a nhurgite hotspot.

A breakdown of the picture:

The 360 scanner has picked up two major signals:
Signals I and G. We do not know much about these signals, but we do have their bearing and strength.
Signal H is most likely a slightly denser cluster of asteroids.

Now let's point the frequency scanner towards the signal I
From the frequency scanner we can start to decipher what is going on:
Signal A is of high frequency and according to a fictional signal frequency table, it looks like the signal is coming from reactors.
The signal B seems to be emanating from laser cannons. Also if this were a video, the signal would be constantly fluctuating.
C seems to be emanating from a station or a capital ship with a safe zone.
D looks like thruster emissions.
E and seems to be comprised of a cluster of certain ores. By analyzing the signals we can determine that E has abnormal amounts of haderite (as an example. I do not actually know what ores emit radiation), maybe qualifying as a hotspot.
F seems to originate from broken ship parts meaning that there is potential salvage to be had in that direction.

With the help of these sensors, we know that in a certain direction there is:
-Conflict
-Station / capital
-Possible haderite hotspot
-Possible salvage

HOW?

The new screens could be used as output for all of this information, giving programmers something more to do. Automatic tracking systems, hotspot finder algorithms, and automatic analysis algorithms are some things I can think of.
To be honest I am not actually sure how this would be actually implemented as this is just my two cents on how one could do detection.


IMPLICATIONS TO THE GAME

1. (MULTICREW) You have a reason to multi crew by having someone analyze the contacts and pointing the "radar dish" somewhere while you fly.
(I really want to be able to play as an AWACS "radar" operator and I think it would be awesome)
2. (PVP) You can now locate ships and conflict zones. Making it possible to avoid and find others.
4. (PVE) You could find hotspots, salvage, and stations.

Hope you like my suggestion
What is your opinion?

 

[kiiyo]

I am very very much for this. Like, I'd love to sit on radio and report/map frequencies, and if the system is intricate enough we'd eventually have veteran players who have become one with their radio station, being able to list off a ship's whole damn extended family just by looking at its emission pattern. I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean.

At the same time, I feel like this would be suuuuper confusing to new players. While it seems quite intuitive, or at least semi-easy to pick up for us nerds who are into random bits of technology, I doubt that is the case for most players - so I think the system might end up being even more confusing stuff for players to dig through, on top of the already daunting SSC and other game systems. Depends on the implementation.


TLDR; Yes yes yes fancy radiation scanning, especially so if we can make it accessible to a large chunk of the playerbase.

 

[ChaosRifle]

Specifically regarding multicrew, as I like it in other respects:
Not quite seeing why I would multicrew though. I wouldn't even ask someone I liked to sit and stare at the radar screen all day, as the biggest issue with starbase is it not respecting the players time, IMO. Having that a dedicated role would suck. A lot.

For combat this doesn't really make sense to have a RIO or even a WSO in Starbase. Even if you wanted an analysis of a Tally, its something you only do in BVR, which affords you the time to focus on that specifically.

As for scanning asteroids for hotspots I could see having a RIO easing pilot workload while they avoid asteroids, but a ship designed for scouting them probably has AAS (its job is to fly in-belt constantly, so pretty good use of it) and would likely be narrow to avoid impacts in the first place.

There is also implications for auto-turrets too.. Bearing and Range are the two things you need to not only fire at, but lead the target. You can have a 1 line yolol script you create device fields are exposed to yolol.. that would be a fully functional and rather good autoturret, just knowing a bearing and range. (current bearing - old bearing gives you your angular velocity relative to the radar, allowing you to offset your aim to lead for that by knowing muzzle velocity and range)

I like active and passive radar systems, and datalink to allied craft to share intel, but I just don't see people wanting to, or even needing a guy dedicated to reading radar tracks unless its difficult enough to identify what you are looking at - which ruins accessibility.

 

[pavvvel]

Excluded...
This is another idea to evade PVP.
"full 360-degree vision" Will allow players to never turn around, not to watch their backs, not to follow anything at all.
Hidden attacks will become impossible.
Silent movement for the purpose of boarding will become impossible. The ship's disguise will become useless.
And when unscrupulous players ask the developer for the possibility of the Ship "disappearing" from the world, the combination with "full 360-degree vision" will kill the game completely.
Stop inventing mechanics that are only needed to evade pvp.

#no passive sensors!

 

[kiiyo]

Specifically regarding multicrew, as I like it in other respects:
Not quite seeing why I would multicrew though. I wouldn't even ask someone I liked to sit and stare at the radar screen all day, as the biggest issue with starbase is it not respecting the players time, IMO. Having that a dedicated role would suck. A lot.

For combat this doesn't really make sense to have a RIO or even a WSO in Starbase. Even if you wanted an analysis of a Tally, its something you only do in BVR, which affords you the time to focus on that specifically.

As for scanning asteroids for hotspots I could see having a RIO easing pilot workload while they avoid asteroids, but a ship designed for scouting them probably has AAS (its job is to fly in-belt constantly, so pretty good use of it) and would likely be narrow to avoid impacts in the first place.

There is also implications for auto-turrets too.. Bearing and Range are the two things you need to not only fire at, but lead the target. You can have a 1 line yolol script you create device fields are exposed to yolol.. that would be a fully functional and rather good autoturret, just knowing a bearing and range. (current bearing - old bearing gives you your angular velocity relative to the radar, allowing you to offset your aim to lead for that by knowing muzzle velocity and range)

I like active and passive radar systems, and datalink to allied craft to share intel, but I just don't see people wanting to, or even needing a guy dedicated to reading radar tracks unless its difficult enough to identify what you are looking at - which ruins accessibility.

can we please get translations of all the 3 letter words in an edit or something ;-;

 

[[TAC] NASA]

can we please get translations of all the 3 letter words in an edit or something ;-;

RIO = Radar Intercepts Officer AKA someone who looks at the radar for you in a fighter. (A real thing IRL)
WSO = Weapons Systems Officer AKA someone who makes your missiles hit, sitting in your fighter as well (A real thing IRL)
AAS = Asteroid Avoidance System. Basically a laserwall in a ship that makes you not hit roids.
BVR = Beyond Visual Range. Quite self explanatory.
IMO = In my opinion

 

[[TAC] NASA]

Specifically regarding multicrew, as I like it in other respects:
Not quite seeing why I would multicrew though. I wouldn't even ask someone I liked to sit and stare at the radar screen all day, as the biggest issue with starbase is it not respecting the players time, IMO. Having that a dedicated role would suck. A lot.

For combat this doesn't really make sense to have a RIO or even a WSO in Starbase. Even if you wanted an analysis of a Tally, its something you only do in BVR, which affords you the time to focus on that specifically.

As for scanning asteroids for hotspots I could see having a RIO easing pilot workload while they avoid asteroids, but a ship designed for scouting them probably has AAS (its job is to fly in-belt constantly, so pretty good use of it) and would likely be narrow to avoid impacts in the first place.

There is also implications for auto-turrets too.. Bearing and Range are the two things you need to not only fire at, but lead the target. You can have a 1 line yolol script you create device fields are exposed to yolol.. that would be a fully functional and rather good autoturret, just knowing a bearing and range. (current bearing - old bearing gives you your angular velocity relative to the radar, allowing you to offset your aim to lead for that by knowing muzzle velocity and range)

I like active and passive radar systems, and datalink to allied craft to share intel, but I just don't see people wanting to, or even needing a guy dedicated to reading radar tracks unless its difficult enough to identify what you are looking at - which ruins accessibility.

I only really thought about situations where you are in a convoy or something, because then it would be useful for someone to look at the radar screen and trying to find contacts / a good hotspot. You at that point probably have some excess personnel to make look at the screen and it is very important to have advanced warning of pirates. Having someone else in your ship to look the screen for you would be kind of overkill as well IMO.

However I do absolutely agree that it is nearly useless to have someone else looking at your sensor screen in combat. BVR combat doesn't really exist anyway and this system is probably only going to be used in finding combat.

IDK, maybe this multicrew thing doesn't manifest at all if this were to be implemented like this. We would have to see.

 

[[TAC] NASA]

Excluded...
This is another idea to evade PVP.
"full 360-degree vision" Will allow players to never turn around, not to watch their backs, not to follow anything at all.
Hidden attacks will become impossible.
Silent movement for the purpose of boarding will become impossible. The ship's disguise will become useless.
And when unscrupulous players ask the developer for the possibility of the Ship "disappearing" from the world, the combination with "full 360-degree vision" will kill the game completely.
Stop inventing mechanics that are only needed to evade pvp.

#no passive sensors!

I do have some counterpoints:

"Hidden attacks will become impossible."

I wouldn't say impossible, perhaps just harder. Sensors might have blind spots and ships might have options for stealth. Maybe stealth ships will just have to have more radiation shielding (like is hinted in the ore descriptions). Also good luck picking out a well-built stealthship that doesn't emmit much radiation from a shitty small screen with a low refresh rate that is filled with background noise WHILE mining / flying.

Also note that with skilled sensors usage you have MORE chances to attack people. It will make the game less boring as it would be now viable to hunt people instead of just sitting at the gate, waiting and waiting...

"Stop inventing mechanics that are only needed to evade pvp."

Remember the fact that you can use these mechanics to hunt people as well. They are both offensive and defensive in nature. What I think might happen is that PvP would start happening more often outside of the immediately known hotspots, like the gate. Also you can probably use these mechanics to find ores and salvage etc.

And when unscrupulous players ask the developer for the possibility of the Ship "disappearing" from the world, the combination with "full 360-degree vision" will kill the game completely."

I don't understand what you meant with this.

 

[pavvvel]

So you're saying that I have to completely rebuild the ship just so that I won't be seen by passive sensors that can be added in five minutes.....?
...I agree that it is possible to rebuild the ship to hide from ACTIVE sensors (when the player controls them himself). I meant that the players have already made suggestions that the ship disappear from the world when they close the game.... And if passive sensors notice another player, then someone will simply quit the game to avoid the pvp. That's all. Passive sensors, the disappearance of the ship when exiting the game.... All this is bad.

 

[kiiyo]

I think the devs have stated that ships won't ever be allowed to simply "pop out of existence", and I personally think that endos shouldn't either - let the body of the robot stay there, just turned off or something. Combatlogging players can cry about it.

However, I do agree that a passive sensor does kind of make non-stealthing difficult... maybe if only the "pinpoint" sensor from this suggestion existed, it would be a bit more balanced?

 

[[TAC] NASA]

So you're saying that I have to completely rebuild the ship just so that I won't be seen by passive sensors that can be added in five minutes.....?
...I agree that it is possible to rebuild the ship to hide from ACTIVE sensors (when the player controls them himself). I meant that the players have already made suggestions that the ship disappear from the world when they close the game.... And if passive sensors notice another player, then someone will simply quit the game to avoid the pvp. That's all. Passive sensors, the disappearance of the ship when exiting the game.... All this is bad.

I don't know how they are going to make stealth, but I speculate that it might have something to do with materials. AKA changing materials of plates near your reactor should maybe help?

Also take in to account that someone will have to program these sensors to work as they most likely will be very complex. And to clarify: I am NOT talking about HUD / UI sensors. I am talking about something that needs to be displayed in your ship and that can be very difficult. Most likely it will take hours, if not tens to make a really good sensor system that might distinguish a ship with the 360 sensor outside of visual range.

Also: a large number of people will have no idea how it might work till someone makes a neat document with the many lines of code needed. Also interpreting the thing will take skill. It wont be "I can see you 200 miles away". More like: "I see an abnormal spike that I can barely distinguish from the background noise from the shitty slowly updating screen. The ship is probably under 10 kilometers away"

With stealth ships you could probably make the range of detection even smaller.

Combat logging may be an issue, I give you that, but I believe that it should be solved separately.

Also take in to account, that people will start trusting their sensors more and when you have a good stealth-ship, they wont expect someone to be able to sneak within visual range of them, granting you the element of surprise.

 

[kiiyo]

Tbh "tens of hours to get it to work" doesn't sound that great for accessibility....

But our "GPS systems" exist, and those took even more man hours to refine.

 

[[TAC] NASA]

Tbh "tens of hours to get it to work" doesn't sound that great for accessibility....

But our "GPS systems" exist, and those took even more man hours to refine.

Indeed. I suspect that it will take a similar effort to make this sort of system work.

 

[ChaosRifle]

I don't know how they are going to make stealth

Several ways IRL that could be adapted in-game.
1: by angling the ships panels (armour) such that ideally no surface reflects a radar return. (think Zumwalt-class destroyer where no panel is tangetial to the surface of the water, and therefore never pointed flat on at another ship, or the F117)
2: by using radar absorbing materials like the F22 and F117, acting as a sort of multiplier for radar returns.
3: Active sensors jamming through ECM. This will give away your presence but mask exact locations (like an extremely bright spotlight to the eyes, you know I am there, but not exactly where or how far) of you and your allies operating in the area and can make aquiring a valid radar track (lock-on) difficult/impossible in the noise depending on how strong the interference. You can also spoof your range by correctly delaying the response to the person hitting you with radar, telling them whatever range you want to tell them.
4: Hiding in the background radar (or IR) signatures. Asteroids provide returns, and for IR, so does the sun. Attacking from the sun-side will effectively mask your IR, and waiting between asteroids can mask your presence if your radar return is similar strength to the asteroids.
5: Changing the proporties of the air(space) with things like dumping chaff. This again will give away your presence, but not exact location by masking you in the noise.

Edit: As for already in the works - Radiators vs cooling racks and the use of heat-sinks probably play into the IR side of things

 

[Foraven]

Excluded...
This is another idea to evade PVP.
"full 360-degree vision" Will allow players to never turn around, not to watch their backs, not to follow anything at all.
Hidden attacks will become impossible.

You clearly don't understand what is being proposed.

You should look how such a system works in games like Nebulous: Fleet Command. Sensors hardly means everyone is visible at all time nor that you know exactly who is there. In Nebulous the whole sensor thing is one of the main feature with lots of opportunities to outwit / outplay opponents. PVP can be much more than just line up your guns and shoot...

 

[ChaosRifle]

PVP can be much more than just line up your guns and shoot...

Hot take: PVP that is only line up guns and shoot is not worth playing, IMHO

 

[kiiyo]

Hot take: PVP that is only line up guns and shoot is not worth playing, IMHO

Hotter take: PVP that is only line up guns and shoot is hard to play when your opponent's LOD is blinking in and out of existence

 

[Foraven]

Hot take: PVP that is only line up guns and shoot is not worth playing, IMHO

Unfortunately that's pretty much what we have in Starbase right now. There isn't much more subtlety than line up your guns and shoot and try to not let the opponents do the same, or have a ship that can tank more hits than them.

 

[[TAC] NASA]

Unfortunately that's pretty much what we have in Starbase right now. There isn't much more subtlety than line up your guns and shoot and try to not let the opponents do the same, or have a ship that can tank more hits than them.

IMO all the current "subtlety" in PvP right now comes from what kind of a ship you have and how well you have designed it. Otherwise it is an aiming contest.

 

[ChaosRifle]

IMO all the current "subtlety" in PvP right now comes from what kind of a ship you have and how well you have designed it. Otherwise it is an aiming contest.

You are pretty much correct. You have a given DPS and a given HP before you die because of explosive parts (reactor) or endo death. point and click. the excessive Pitch/Yaw currently allows you to setup controls such that positional advantage inside someones turning circle isnt a thing against a correctly designed ship because their rotational velocity at a combat distance exceeds 150.1m/s making it mathmatically impossible to have positional advantage gains in 1v1