PASSIVE SENSOR TYPES | How to find stuff & a reason to multi-crew

[pavvvel]

No?
You will be able to pick up a contact from further away the stronger their radiation footprint is. These are radiation detectors remember? A miner with 40 gens will be much more visible than a fighter with only a couple, since the square inverse law. The weaker signature emitted by the fighter will dissipate more quickly than the miners, meaning that you can pick up the miner from much further away than the fighters.

Now there is no telling how these mechanics will work. and what makes you think that a warship will have few generators? warships are different. and to hunt adequate players (those who will arm their miners), need powerful strong ships.
there is a chance that the radar will see them as well as 40 generators.

Do you want to just sit and AFK near a gate sealclubbing noobs, or do you want to have sensors to guide you to the miners full of ore that are not expecting you, with your stealth ship, using many tactics in order to get as close as possible to the target?
Which sounds more exiting and fun?

I want to search for enemies with active sensors. I want to sneak up on them (miners or bandits, whatever). passive sensors won't let me attack before the LOD is loaded = dead PvP.

We will see that anyway regardless of sensors due to an asteroids ability to break your ship, and you will be able to siege those stations wont you? IMO sieging sounds more fun and profitable.

I wrote for the 10th time that the stations are cheap and 10 players can put a hundred empty stations to use them as a chain of safe zones. the passive sensors will warn them.
Also, if I understand correctly, I can't attack any station whenever I want. the station owner will set the time to attack and that would be the greatest abusive mechanic against those in a different time zone.

What makes you think of that? We are talking about sensors that can act as a double edged sword, not about how we could be carebears in this game.

I took this from something I've been seeing here for a while now in the game suggestions section.

 

[Recatek]

I want to search for enemies with active sensors. I want to sneak up on them (miners or bandits, whatever). passive sensors won't let me attack before the LOD is loaded = dead PvP.

This reads like you want to enjoy every advantage in the situation, and want miners to just sit there waiting for you to kill them.

I wrote for the 10th time that the stations are cheap and 10 players can put a hundred empty stations to use them as a chain of safe zones. the passive sensors will warn them.

Good, more sieges. You want more PvP, right?

 

[Kelmoir]

Well, I do agree, that miners should be able to defend themselves. I just haven't seen anyone out there, that offer a decent chance of doing so. But even those, that manage to squeeze it all in, have a big issue, if the attacker gets an easy first strike. The attacker may snipe the pilot or the guns, for instance.

But I prefer this to be balanced, whatever sensors the attacker has, to find the miners, the miners should be able to use in order to get warned from the attackers.

And adept players surely can build fighters, that are stealthy on approach, (materials to hide signatures, engines, that need low power and generate low signatures, etc...) but can get quite lethal, when combat starts. Why only the miner got to step up his game (or the ship designer, the miner is going to buy his ships from, anyway) and not the hunter, too?

Safezones and their possible abuse are a different topic, and I agree with you there, that that should not be advantageous. And there should be reasons to mine outside and far away from safezones, imho. But that is a different topic.

 

[pavvvel]

This reads like you want to enjoy every advantage in the situation, and want miners to just sit there waiting for you to kill them.

I have already told you many times about how a miner can defend himself.
You're just clogging up the thread, once again.
This is inadequate behavior.

Good, more sieges. You want more PvP, right?

...and clogging up the thread again.
...I'm talking about the fact that these are empty stations, just a base unit weighing 30 tons and that even this empty unit...and you say "more pvp"...
this is not the place for trolling. learn to respect this place

 

[Askannon]

...Even if the hunter starts the chase - he won't have time to attack the miner before the LOD loads. Passive sensors won't give time for hunter to wait for the LOD to load - that's what you want!

LODs need tuning, that is something the devs are saying themselves. So this will change in the future (hopefully for the better).

passive 360 sensors will kill the ability to board, cloaking in fog, and visual cloaking (coloring).

Here's the thing:
radiation sensors detect radiation.
So if you have your ships powered down with little to no heat generation you can still have your cloaking. Cooling cells and heatsinks are also components that help you approach with little radiation.
So if you really want stealth you can still make it work, as the whole idea proposed here is to essentially point towards heat signatures, but if your ship does not give a heat signature you won't be picked up.
It'd work like holding your breath to avoid detection until you are ready to pounce.

Yes, not every fighter or gunship will be able to sneak into range, but that is then a question of the right tool for the right task.
Don't try to bruteforce.
Study, think and make ships that fit new niches.


And by the way:
Who sends a WARship after one miner or two?

 

[Recatek]

And by the way:
Who sends a WARship after one miner or two?

Apparently, "hardcore" pirates who don't want a fight and who don't think the miner should have a chance of doing anything besides just dying.

 

[pavvvel]

Apparently, "hardcore" pirates who don't want a fight and who don't think the miner should have a chance of doing anything besides just dying.

Trolling again... trolling again...... and again..You've probably confused the forum with the trash garbage can, haven't you?
...I've written many times that combat and PvP is good and that a miner can take a convoy with him and prepare a ship for self-defense... And you write about pirates not wanting to engage in combat.
Your behavior here seems awful.

that miners should be able to defend themselves

They have many opportunities to defend themselves. But that requires thinking, learning, watching their backs, and interacting with other players. Instead, people want to drink beer and watch a movie while their ship is mining for yolol and with passive sensors. When they hear the siren, they will go back to the copter to fly to the station.

People write here that the miner doesn't stand a chance. That's not true.
A miner can carry a lot of weapons. A lot of them. And it's no problem for him to lose a few cargo crates if the weapons explode. Important parts can be intelligently protected by armor. Make a bumper for a battering ram. And when you have 20 laser cannons on your minecraft and generators protected by 7 layers of 384x384 plate armor, there will be a situation - a hunter player won't be able to hunt you flying a weak ship. He will not have enough ammo, or it will be blown up. The hunter will need firepower. And that means a bigger ship....
You fly cheap miners, but are very concerned about the odds of defense.
I suggest an adequate option. But people... want to drink beer and watch movies.

Here's the thing:
radiation sensors detect radiation.
So if you have your ships powered down with little to no heat generation you can still have your cloaking. Cooling cells and heatsinks are also components that help you approach with little radiation.
So if you really want stealth you can still make it work, as the whole idea proposed here is to essentially point towards heat signatures, but if your ship does not give a heat signature you won't be picked up.
It'd work like holding your breath to avoid detection until you are ready to pounce.

I'm really looking forward to the radiation search mechanic.
Don't get me wrong. it would be more adequate to have active sensors, for example, with a scanning range of 60-60 degrees in 10 seconds and a high scanning range. Then, yolol could turn the sensor to 60 degrees and continue scanning. Or a player friend could manage the sensors. That would be interesting and exciting.
But instead people here write about passive 360 degree sensors...
They don't want to improve their ships. They want to casualize and fly ships where all 100 engines are connected to 1 tube and 1 cable. They say that making a good ship means mining less ore. But they don't understand 2 things:
1) if you fail to defend yourself and get blown up, you don't get ore and lose money.
2) the player-hunter doesn't get ore at all when he hunts.

 

[Recatek]

Trolling again... trolling again...... and again

Perceiving all disagreement as "trolling" seems like a personal problem.

I've written many times that combat and PvP is good and that a miner can take a convoy with him and prepare a ship for self-defense... And you write about pirates not wanting to engage in combat.

You've also completely ignored why that's entirely impractical from a gameplay perspective. Miners are people playing a video game, they aren't going to play it for your benefit, they're going to play it for theirs, and what you're prescribing for them doesn't make sense from the miner's perspective.

When they hear the siren, they will go back to the copter to fly to the station.

Yes, because these are players with agency and their own desires instead of clay pigeons for you to shoot at.

A miner can carry a lot of weapons. A lot of them.

Every player manning said weapon could be in another miner making more money. Again, it just doesn't make economic sense to turn miners into warships as you're suggesting. You're still probably going to die anyway, only now in a much more expensive ship, that mines a lot less efficiently, and ties up more people not making money on their own. These are people playing a video game, and they want to mine to make money, they're not out there to be your target. They don't exist just to serve your gameplay.

They don't want to improve their ships.

No, it just doesn't make sense to go mining in a battleship. People absolutely want to improve their ships for mining.

the player-hunter desn't get ore at all when he hunts.

Almost as if it's a secondary, derivative playstyle that isn't as important to the game as mining is. Between miners and pirates, which could the game function more completely without?

 

[pavvvel]

You've also completely ignored why that's entirely impractical from a gameplay perspective. Miners are people playing a video game, they aren't going to play it for your benefit, they're going to play it for theirs, and what you're prescribing for them doesn't make sense from the miner's perspective.

impractical in terms of gameplay...?
Then it's not practical to play MMOs, play solo games.

It's likely that someone forgot that almost all players engage in mining. even the player-hunter does it.

Yes, because these are players with agency and their own desires instead of clay pigeons for you to shoot at.

Stop insulting the players

Every player manning said weapon could be in another miner making more money. Again, it just doesn't make economic sense to turn miners into warships as you're suggesting. You're still probably going to die anyway, only now in a much more expensive ship, that mines a lot less efficiently, and ties up more people not making money on their own. These are people playing a video game, and they want to mine to make money, they're not out there to be your target. They don't exist just to serve your gameplay.

More money? If you get killed regularly, there will be no money.
This is an open world MMO. So don't pretend that killing another player is something bad. It's normal gameplay. PvP is the engine of progress. Without PvP the game is not interesting. You make 10 billion dollars and then what...? That's a rhetorical question and you don't have to answer it (in case you haven't figured it out)

No, it just doesn't make sense to go mining in a battleship. People absolutely want to improve their ships for mining.

You always speak for people. But you don't have that right. You insult these same people by calling them birds of clay.

Perceiving all disagreement as "trolling" seems like a personal problem.


You've also completely ignored why that's entirely impractical from a gameplay perspective. Miners are people playing a video game, they aren't going to play it for your benefit, they're going to play it for theirs, and what you're prescribing for them doesn't make sense from the miner's perspective.


Yes, because these are players with agency and their own desires instead of clay pigeons for you to shoot at.


Every player manning said weapon could be in another miner making more money. Again, it just doesn't make economic sense to turn miners into warships as you're suggesting. You're still probably going to die anyway, only now in a much more expensive ship, that mines a lot less efficiently, and ties up more people not making money on their own. These are people playing a video game, and they want to mine to make money, they're not out there to be your target. They don't exist just to serve your gameplay.


No, it just doesn't make sense to go mining in a battleship. People absolutely want to improve their ships for mining.


Almost as if it's a secondary, derivative playstyle that isn't as important to the game as mining is. Between miners and pirates, which could the game function more completely without?

The game cannot be complete without the risk of being killed.

 

[Recatek]

Then it's not practical to play MMOs, play solo games.

This attitude is a great way to turn Starbase into a solo game when nobody wants to play it with you.

Stop insulting the players

Pointing out that players have agency, and don't just exist to serve your gameplay is the exact opposite of an insult. This is willfully disingenuous on your part.

More money? If you get killed regularly, there will be no money.

Starbase has a very big world, and your likelihood of being attacked is actually quite slim. You won't be attacked every time, and any modifications you make to your ship that harm mining efficiency harm every mining run, even the ones where you're left alone. That's why it is rarely economically sound to try to mine in a warship. This especially when an armed/armored miner is still pretty unlikely to survive an ambush by a dedicated pirate ship.

PvP is the engine of progress.

Piracy is a derivative/secondary playstyle that is mostly supported by players that don't really want to be pirated. It only exists because those other players grudgingly tolerate it instead of just leaving the game. Pirate players have to make some concessions to keep miner players playing, otherwise they'll have nothing left to pirate. Some players are both, but most have a strong preference for one or the other. If the game does nothing to make mining rewarding/viable in a PvP environment, then you won't have anybody to pirate because all of the miners will leave the game. The answer here isn't "well they should just play how I think they should play", the answer is to give them more room to play how they want to play, so that, in exchange, being pirated is a more tolerable interruption of their desired gameplay. That way the game keeps miners around for you to hunt and kill.

Without PvP the game is not interesting.

There are plenty of opportunities for PvP beyond pirate vs. miner. Sieges and other territory conflicts provide sources of PvP where both sides are ready, willing, and able to fight. Isn't that better? I think it is. Or are you just dead set on pirate vs. miner where you always have the odds stacked in your favor?

You always speak for people. But you don't have that right. You insult these same people by calling them birds of clay.

Well, no. This is a (willful?) misunderstanding on your part, so let me clarify: You essentially want miners to just be your target practice by removing as many tools as possible for them to have any agency. I'm pointing out that these players aren't just your targets, and want to have fun playing Starbase too.

The game cannot be complete without the risk of being killed.

Actually I'd argue that it could. It wouldn't be great, but the game would at least function. On the other hand, if the game had nobody mining and building things, the game just outright would not work. Constructive players are far more critical to Starbase's health than destructive ones. Both are important to the full experience, but not equally so.

 

[pavvvel]

Practice has shown that it makes no sense to answer all this useless text completely.
Just a few illustrative moments: a forum troll says that piracy is a "secondary" (non-primary) style of play..... It's just ridiculous)))) piracy and gank are part of PVP and roleplay, which means this is the main fundamental style of the game.
Because this is not a single game, but an MMO. but you are trying by all means to make it single. He said: "no tolerate the pirates"..
...wild laughter, oh.. Keep going!)
Now everything has become clear. He says it's better to quit the game than to study, improve his skills and build good ships))))
at the same time, he says that the players are birds... Bravo!

Who gave him the right to humiliate the style of play of other players..? Who gave the right to belittle their gameplay?. ......

 

[[TAC] NASA]

Just a few illustrative moments: a forum troll says that piracy is a "secondary" (non-primary) style of play..... It's just ridiculous)))) piracy and gank are part of PVP and roleplay, which means this is the main fundamental style of the game.

I wouldn't call piracy a fundamental part of SB. The reward for the pirate VS time spent pirating makes it financially not worth it. It is only worth it ATM if you just want to shoot noobs and sealclub. If they really wanted piracy to be a part of the game, they would make it happen outside of the only chokepoint in the game (warpgate), they would add the radiations sensors (360:s aswell) so that the miners and pirates could find eachother outside of the gate AND then adda better reward for the pirate and maybe some sort of bounty system so piratehunting will become viable and the piracy victim could get closure.

Because this is not a single game, but an MMO. but you are trying by all means to make it single. He said: "no tolerate the pirates"..
...wild laughter, oh.. Keep going!)
Now everything has become clear. He says it's better to quit the game than to study, improve his skills and build good ships))))

PvP will always have it's place in starbase, maybe not in the form of piracy, but the devs intend you to shoot people and get shot back.
Also again: By arming your miner, you prepare for a chance-encounter that most likely isn't going to happen ever, since a pirate cannot ever find you if you know the tricks of the trade. And then you make your ship much more expensive and lose a lot of efficiency, making arming your miner pointless.

Also you as a pirate lose by default by not being able to find me.

The fix for your problem? 360 sensors.
They reward miners who can keep a keen eye on the screen and react quickly. (Miner hid his ship / ran away)
They hurt miners who are too slow to react or who don't know what they are doing. (Miner got pirated)

They reward pirates who can build ships with a low radiation footprint and who can use good tactics. (Target successfully pirated)
They hurt pirates who are unskilled and do not know what they are doing. (Target ran away)

at the same time, he says that the players are birds... Bravo!

You seem to not understand what he is trying to say, so let me elaborate:
Clay pigeon is a thrown disk intended as a target for shooting, harmless and meant for killing.
He is saying that the miners aren't solely your clay pigeons (targets) and aren't meant as such.
He is NOT calling players birds, he is referring to something that they most definitely are not. (Nonetheless birds are cool anyway)

basically he is pointing it out that you seem to think miners as just targets and nothing else, which would make you inclined to think that these sensor mechanics that could give the miners some counterplay are inherently made against you, which they are not.
You are giving an impression that you want the game to be as easy as possible for you and as hard as possible for the miners by not giving the them anything to be able to fight back with (sensors) while being blind for the fact that the sensors would also increase your pirating opportunities by a great amount.

 

[pavvvel]

Another huge useless text.... It's like you don't see what I'm writing. I said that almost all players and pirates are engaged in mining, too. Therefore, there is no need to write lies about the fact that I perceive miners only as targets... But it is important to note that the perception of other players solely as targets is normal and adequate. Someone enters the game to mine, and someone to shoot.

To claim that piracy is a secondary gameplay and to argue that it is economically unprofitable is extremely strange and this is another lie and delusion. As well as saying that it is not necessary to make armored armed miners. This is also a misconception. A few months ago I killed a miner. He flew and didn't touch anyone. There were no weapons on his ship. I attacked him from the side. When his generator exploded, he was hiding behind the wreckage, but I hit him in the head with a ship's weapon. I was not on a warship, but on a miner. With a gun. I had a miner without armor and without pilot protection. If that player had armed his ship, he would have been able to defend himself. He wouldn't have died. Is that clear? Or do you think that with the increase of the online green rings of the moon will be safe..? You can fly on anything. But there is no need to lie about the fact that armor and weapons are useless on the miner. If you don't know how to make ships, that's your problem.

About birds. Any comparison of a person with an animal is not an adequate behavior. You should understand that this game is played by people from all over the world, with different worldviews and different mentalities. You can compare yourself with an animal personally. But comparing other people with animals is inadequate.

 

[[TAC] NASA]

Another huge useless text.... It's like you don't see what I'm writing.

Same here

To claim that piracy is a secondary gameplay and to argue that it is economically unprofitable is extremely strange and this is another lie and delusion.

I think mining is more profitable than piracy ATM, however please prove me wrong if you think I am, because then I will take up the most profitable playstyle.

As well as saying that it is not necessary to make armored armed miners. This is also a misconception.

Why I will not armor up my miner or have an escort (only exception is the gate transit):
-Pirate finding you outside SZ is near impossible (except the gate)
-Arming my ship is expensive and makes it slower
-Having weapons constantly ready would drain a lot of power, meaning worse fuel-economy, and not having them charged makes me "vulnerable" to surprise attacks.
-My ship has voxel limits

Thus it is not necessary for me to arm my miner, as it only would be wasting my money and adding dead weight.

Also when did you last find a target with the lack of sensors in game?

A few months ago I killed a miner.

Seems like it is difficult to find targets, isn't it?

 

[kiiyo]

Also, even if I get blown up every say 10th run (that's an absurdly high rate, I know, but let's keep it for the sake of the point), I just need to make sure that my 9 runs before getting blown up are profitable enough to buy another copy of my ship + leave some money over as "net profit". Which is pretty easy, even if you mine the more "worthless" ores.

No sense in making a miner more expensive (guns are costly), slower (guns and armor are heavy) and capable of carrying less (crates sacrificed for some proper armor), if I can just buy a new naked mining box as soon as I respawn.

 

[pavvvel]

I think mining is more profitable than piracy ATM, however please prove me wrong if you think I am, because then I will take up the most profitable playstyle.

mining is more profitable for the money.
Piracy is more profitable for pleasure and to improve skills.

Why I will not armor up my miner or have an escort (only exception is the gate transit):
-Pirate finding you outside SZ is near impossible (except the gate)
-Arming my ship is expensive and makes it slower
-Having weapons constantly ready would drain a lot of power, meaning worse fuel-economy, and not having them charged makes me "vulnerable" to surprise attacks.
-My ship has voxel limits

Thus it is not necessary for me to arm my miner, as it only would be wasting my money and adding dead weight.

Also when did you last find a target with the lack of sensors in game?

if you're flying a "crystal bucket," don't cry begging to be given passive sensors.

No sense in making a miner more expensive (guns are costly), slower (guns and armor are heavy) and capable of carrying less (crates sacrificed for some proper armor), if I can just buy a new naked mining box as soon as I respawn.

Being defenseless and vulnerable, enduring being shot at, I don't think that's a man's tactic.
Finding excuses for yourself... begging for casual mechanics...

i didn't care how much i make - it's how i do it that matters. i care about gameplay. is being vulnerable always your gameplay? then immediately ask the developer to blacklist in which you will enter all the players, like they do in elit denjeros (its good for casuals, and the game dies)

and it's a lie that there will be less money on an armed miner. if you don't know how to build ships and defend yourself - nothing will help you

 

[[TAC] NASA]

mining is more profitable for the money.
Piracy is more profitable for pleasure and to improve skills.

I think PTU would probably be more suitable if you want to improve skills
And if you think that it is enjoyable to camp the gate, go right ahead.

if you're flying a "crystal bucket," don't cry begging to be given passive sensors.

Just for info: I have never ever been pirated even in one of my countless mining trips, because the pirates cannot find me. These 360 sensors would change that as they would function as a defensive and an offensive measure.

and it's a lie that there will be less money on an armed miner. if you don't know how to build ships and defend yourself - nothing will help you

Ironically armed miners would become more viable and even necessary for self-defence and opportunistic attacks...
...If you could find anyone in the game

Also Pavvvel, how often do you find targets while doing piracy, where, and how long do you have to wait?

 

[Foraven]

and it's a lie that there will be less money on an armed miner. if you don't know how to build ships and defend yourself - nothing will help you

It is already quite difficult making a good fighter for PVP, an armed miner is just full of compromises that makes it worst at both job.

 

[Foraven]

To claim that piracy is a secondary gameplay and to argue that it is economically unprofitable is extremely strange and this is another lie and delusion. As well as saying that it is not necessary to make armored armed miners. This is also a misconception. A few months ago I killed a miner. He flew and didn't touch anyone. There were no weapons on his ship. I attacked him from the side. When his generator exploded, he was hiding behind the wreckage, but I hit him in the head with a ship's weapon. I was not on a warship, but on a miner. With a gun. I had a miner without armor and without pilot protection. If that player had armed his ship, he would have been able to defend himself. He wouldn't have died. Is that clear? Or do you think that with the increase of the online green rings of the moon will be safe..? You can fly on anything. But there is no need to lie about the fact that armor and weapons are useless on the miner. If you don't know how to make ships, that's your problem.

They are useless on a miner unless all you shoot at are other miners. Any combat ship worth their salt can wreak an armed/armored miner. No armed miner is going to be fully armored with 4+ guns (unless you don`t care about the compromises).

 

[pavvvel]

Just for info: I have never ever been pirated even in one of my countless mining trips, because the pirates cannot find me.

I'm not interested in your biography. Don't litter the thread.

Also Pavvvel, how often do you find targets while doing piracy, where, and how long do you have to wait?

Considering that there are 120 people online, your question is another trolling and littering the thread

It is already quite difficult making a good fighter for PVP, an armed miner is just full of compromises that makes it worst at both job.

This does not mean that players have to fly on a glass bucket and beg the developer for casual mechanics.


If you get your hands on a calculator, you can calculate how much armor and weapons a ship can carry if you make 600 crates instead of 700. One crate weighs 10 tons, the ore in it can weigh 10-25 tons. total up to 2.5 kilotons (average) of armor and weapons. and unlike a warship, the miner can mount weapons directly on crates, which is a lot of space.
I understand that it's hard to make such a ship, but it's interesting. It's 1000 times more interesting than flying on a crystal bucket with no way to defend yourself.
when i get killed, i want to defend myself and have a chance to win. there is always a chance. pirate ships are usually small. and the miner has a very powerful generator, you can mount a lot of weapons.
I don't understand why players are trying to make Starbase casual. 99% of games now are casual. let's say you have an efficient miner and 999 billion money... then what? I'd rather have 800 billion, but I'll play with interest.

In Elite Dangerous I did PvP using a cargo or passenger ship. The cargo ship I used doesn't even rate as a cargo ship. It has no maneuverability and very few weapons. It was very interesting and many players were blown away. Starbase has 1000x more opportunities to do a similar build.

Two sides of the coin:
1) Casual. Passive 360 sensors. 100 stations. 100 safezones. Yolol makes a beep - the player flies away to the station. Gameplay is over.
2) Adequate. Players learn how to make good ships. Keeping an eye on the situation. Learn to defend themselves. And using active sensors as a separate type of gameplay!

Which is better: another silent yolol feature for casuals or a whole huge layer of gameplay in the form of active sensors...?

Players are crying about miners needing to be given a chance. But why give them that chance if they won't even make a good ship..................?