Please read before working on combat rebalance.

Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
17
#1
This is in reference to the phenomenon of 'decorative railings' being an overpowered armour meta.

It's been mentioned somewhere on the steam forums that a combat rebalance is bound to happen sometime in the future.
In Discord, Conquester further elaborates "they want to make big plates more viable, and deco rails less viable."

Before you start digging into configs and making the already lopsided system of Magic HP even more aggressively ridiculous, you need to understand (assuming you already don't) what is actually the cause of this problem.

There is nothing inherently special about decorative railings that makes them overpowered against other voxel pieces. Every single object has its own armour rating (for magic hp) and density. IE there's nothing different about a 72cm charodium railing and a 72x12 charodium plate except a slight weight decrease due to shaved corners.

This issue is mostly prevalent where railguns/plasma cannons are involved. For the purposes of lasers/autocannons, flat sheets is just as, if not more effective.

This issue is simply an exploitation of the destruction engine, and there are 3 core problems that plague it. I'm assuming whoever created the destruction engine is long gone, and I suggest whoever decides to tinker with it study it carefully and actually understand the numerous issues that can create a very unbalanced meta. So this is a root issue, nothing to do with special unknown properties of some pieces.

1. Damage area of effect. (plasma/rails only)
The reason array's of railings or 12cm thick long plates are made is because it entirely negates the large area of effect that rail and plasma damage provides, which is the defining feature of these weapons. This is a simple issue, as the damage model only cares about the 1 piece its hitting at, at a time, which makes this easily exploitable. However, its not the worst issue, and can continue to be an issue without significant impact as long as the other two are dealt with.

2. Projectile energy reduction over distance across a single piece.
This issue is critical, and needs to be looked into. The longer a projectile has to travel through a single piece, the more energy (life) it loses. This sounds pretty reasonable, however the reduction of energy is exponential, and in starbase's case actually doesn't make logical sense.
Using exorium (the highest material density) a rail round can only penetrate 60cm of solid voxel. However, if you line up pieces the other way, a single rail shot will go through 294cm of 12cm segments. Considering the sandbox nature of the builder, and the face that are plates are only 12cm thick, this is an outrageous outcome.

Ideally, there would be no such thing as the exponential loss of energy through solid voxel. In starbase this makes 0 sense, as ships are comprised of many many many pieces, and is insanely unbalanced. Ideally, the depth of damage should be the same regardless of how many different pieces each test is made of (assuming magic HP bs is not accounted for).

3. Projectile termination on exit threshold.
This is also another critical issue, which is compounded by the last. Once a projectile has finished travelling through a single object, it meets another calculation. If the energy of the projectile has fallen below a certain threshold, the projectile is simply deleted. This issue is especially horrible for railguns, as a rail shot can still contain a huge amount of energy when it's deleted because it's less than some % of its original energy.

To exemplify what this means for railguns, a single 32cm piece of exorium is enough to delete the projectile entirely. If thats not insane balance, I don't know what is. so after the insanely high dropoff of energy from the exponentially reducing energy calc, the projectile sits below a certain threshold, and even though it still has enough energy to cause significant damage, it's simply deleted.

So a railshot with an enormous 21k~ energy per shot, is stopped dead in its tracks by a damage model that has a laser shot with 500 energy react the exact same way. These 3 issues are what plagues the damage model so awfully, not the fact that large plates simply aren't OP enough (which they are, because magic HP is another BS issue).
 

XenoCow

Master endo
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
588
#2
Here here! I too would very much like the damage model to be fixed, but not fiddled with until it is understood. Most of my suggestions I've made in the past have been about damage and the damage model.

I suggest you write a brief summary at the top for the developers. Lauri does sometimes read the forums, but seems to have only limited time to do so.
 

J.D.

Veteran endo
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
222
#3
I’d also like to see rail cannons, and plasma cannons receive recoil as well. Like, as if a maneuver thruster was to fire when shooting the guns, creating a pushing back force that will actually move the ship, and mess up momentum. And if the weapon is not on center, the shots push back, and also to the right or left, depending on where the weapon is located in relation to center of mass. I think that would help eliminate some meta, and leave those plasma spam, and especially rails for larger gun ships where recoil won’t impact as much with a bigger mass carrying the weapon.
 
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
17
#4
I’d also like to see rail cannons, and plasma cannons receive recoil as well. Like, as if a maneuver thruster was to fire when shooting the guns, creating a pushing back force that will actually move the ship, and mess up momentum. And if the weapon is not on center, the shots push back, and also to the right or left, depending on where the weapon is located in relation to center of mass. I think that would help eliminate some meta, and leave those plasma spam, and especially rails for larger gun ships where recoil won’t impact as much with a bigger mass carrying the weapon.
There's all sorts of cool stuff they could of done with the combat. Feels a bit basic when you take a broad look at what's available, but' I've got a feeling someone out there's annoyed at that considering how much work they might of put into it lol.
 

J.D.

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#5
There's all sorts of cool stuff they could have done with the combat. Feels a bit basic when you take a broad look at what's available, but' I've got a feeling someone out there's annoyed at that considering how much work they might of put into it lol.
true. lol and I just say most of this simply because of the meta the community has been coming up with. Unfortunately, the really cool faction ships VilleFB created are not very competitive. I wish the game was balanced in a way that they were. Seems like just having 2 weapon systems is just not ideal all together, and that sucks. But maybe we will see some significant balancing in the future. I’ve heard several rumors.
 

Colonkin

Well-known endo
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Apr 29, 2022
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#6
Balance is those things that are always lacking in any MMO sandbox. Any player meta comes from the limitations and simplifications received from the creators of games and universes.

What I would like to see as a balance.

1. The Durability parameter should not limit the speed of the ship. Simply, if the calculation shows that the load exceeds the tensile strength of the beam material, it must collapse. This will force you to make structures with a powerful cross-sectional core. So that the ship can bear the load. The same applies to loose elements. We now have thrust control given to the logic of the ship. If there is an imbalance in the center of gravity of the ship, then a torque will arise that must be compensated by the thrust of the engines. (this will automatically reduce the power of other engines and the speed itself will drop).

2. I would like to see the weapon recoil (well, if we are talking about Sci-Fi, then some kind of compensators. Because one rail gun has a projectile mass of 125 voxels and a flight speed of 1,400 m/s. Projectile energy (projectile impulse, and recoil should be in the amount of 125 * 1400 = 175,000. Let me remind you that one T1 box thruster has a power of 500,000. This all applies if the gun is located in the center of mass of the ship. What if there is a lever? By the way, another question.
And what mass of the projectile are we talking about in a laser gun (7 voxels, by the way)? Does she shoot photons? Light only has energy.

I recognize that certain assumptions and simplifications are required to make the calculations simple. Nobody argues with this. But at least I would like to see the general laws of nature.

P.S. By ship design. The biggest misconception is what we see in science fiction films about space. Many of the structures we saw there are not viable in real space. There is no air resistance in space, so pure spaceships will not have airfoils. Hence, the most effective form is a cube with frames and trusses (if you don’t need aesthetics and aerodynamics). Aesthetics and aerodynamics make the device heavier and make it more expensive. Moreover, according to the lore of the game, robots do not need life support systems.
 

J.D.

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#7
that’s true. We don’t need those shapes. But, I for one just find the game dull with just a bunch of boxes flying around. It’s just not fun, at least, to me. A lot of people like space themes, and the ships in them. Even if it doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. That’s what we all have grown up with. So even though boxes work, it’s just weird. I what REAALLY makes things bad is the fact that a box is meta. So for people like myself, who don’t want to use boxes, I’m shooting my self in the foot. So I can’t be aesthetically pleased, and competitive at the same time, which sucks, bad also, when I say something aside from a box, I don’t mean wings. To me, space ships don’t have to have wings to be nice. I just hate this whole box thing.
 
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J.D.

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#8
Boxes have that unsaid message attached to them. Junk like “get dunked on nerd” or “git gud” or “get rekt noob” stuff like that. I don’t think the majority of this player base likes those types. Maybe in call of duty. But not here. lol flying a box is pretty much associating one self with a noob dunker imo. In fact, if they don’t make any dramatic changes to this, I’m at least going to try to start a militia who is open to anyone, member, or entire companies, like an alliance outside of an alliance, like a table of council who’s sole purpose is to come together, and fight metas with overwhelming numbers. Not only fight their ships, but raid the stations creating them til there is nothing left, then split the salvage among everyone associated in defeating the heresy. A place even enemies can come together to fight a common goal, then go back to shooting each other later until another company or faction shows up making meta cubes. At least an idea to turn something negative into positive. Idk 🤷‍♂️
 
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Colonkin

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Joined
Apr 29, 2022
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#9
I would also like to fly on beautiful and functional ships. But the cube meta arose due to the simplification of the calculation of the hit model.

The analogy is like with tanks. At first the tanks were huge with armor at right angles. Over the years, the understanding came that it was possible to increase armor not with the help of additional weight, but by placing it under rational angles. But in the game, such calculations will consume a lot of processor resources. Because of this, all cubic ships are not bothered by their large cross-section and meeting the projectile at a right angle. More precisely, there is no point in making pyramidal shapes to increase the thickness of the armor due to rational angles, because anyway, the calculation of hits will not take into account the increased thickness of the voxels. Therefore we have cubes. If these calculations, even in a simplified form, were introduced into the hit model, we would have not cubes but pyramids and balls.

Well, we would try to reduce the cross-section of the ship in relation to the target.

The game currently has many more problems than the damage model. There are not enough resources for everything.
 

Erador

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Joined
Sep 2, 2021
Messages
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#10
I think one way is to fix the rails is to ignore the fracture (critical) damage if the volume of the hit part is small, and just penetrate it. And do fracture damage only when there is a huge thing.
 

J.D.

Veteran endo
Joined
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Messages
222
#11
I would also like to fly on beautiful and functional ships. But the cube meta arose due to the simplification of the calculation of the hit model.

The analogy is like with tanks. At first the tanks were huge with armor at right angles. Over the years, the understanding came that it was possible to increase armor not with the help of additional weight, but by placing it under rational angles. But in the game, such calculations will consume a lot of processor resources. Because of this, all cubic ships are not bothered by their large cross-section and meeting the projectile at a right angle. More precisely, there is no point in making pyramidal shapes to increase the thickness of the armor due to rational angles, because anyway, the calculation of hits will not take into account the increased thickness of the voxels. Therefore we have cubes. If these calculations, even in a simplified form, were introduced into the hit model, we would have not cubes but pyramids and balls.

Well, we would try to reduce the cross-section of the ship in relation to the target.

The game currently has many more problems than the damage model. There are not enough resources for everything.
Well since you put it that way. That sucks, and I guess you are right. There is going to be min maxing no matter what. I’ve heard things about the devs looking into a few different things as far as balance and all, so hopefully that will make it more fun. Other than that, creating a stigma towards those kinds of builds is an effective way to combat that meta. If we all make it an automatic common enemy. I even thought about how cool it would be to have some sort of alliance outside of the normal alliances where people just work together with overwhelming numbers to absolutely crush meta players, their stations, their ships, all crushed constantly, raided into oblivion. A place where people separate their rp differences in game to all turn their attention to the meta bros, wipe em all out, and get back to the normal routine. lol that would be quite effective too. But it would have to remain steady and unwavering.
 

Colonkin

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#12
Well since you put it that way. That sucks, and I guess you are right. There is going to be min maxing no matter what. I’ve heard things about the devs looking into a few different things as far as balance and all, so hopefully that will make it more fun. Other than that, creating a stigma towards those kinds of builds is an effective way to combat that meta. If we all make it an automatic common enemy. I even thought about how cool it would be to have some sort of alliance outside of the normal alliances where people just work together with overwhelming numbers to absolutely crush meta players, their stations, their ships, all crushed constantly, raided into oblivion. A place where people separate their rp differences in game to all turn their attention to the meta bros, wipe em all out, and get back to the normal routine. lol that would be quite effective too. But it would have to remain steady and unwavering.
Get your emotions out of your thoughts. They will not lead to the right path. (I’m talking specifically about the shape of the ships, and not about those individuals who insult others with inscriptions on ships. Although in a certain sense this is also part of the RP of the game. Especially if the players decide to play pirates or misfits.)

Meta arises not as evil, but as the most effective form of interaction with the world. Even our organisms in real life are meta. Because it was effective and ensured survival. It's pretty much the same in the game.
Meta itself is not evil. This is simply an indicator of how everything works in the rules of the game and the game world. If they change, the meta will change.
And there is nothing wrong with the majority following the meta. This is a basic instinct of any organism, especially a thinking one. Use what gives maximum benefits at minimum costs.

Developers need to pay attention to what is happening. Only changing the rules of the game will change the meta. For example, increasing the speed of torpedoes by 1.5 times can greatly reduce the number of large cubic ships. In a large ship it is easier to hold a target designator so that the torpedo does not miss. Or a change in the efficiency of acceleration with increasing mass (for example, in the DU there was a kind of relativistic effect, which, when approaching the maximum speed, greatly increased the required thrust for acceleration). Developers have a lot of tools to regulate the game even without significantly changing the mechanics of projectile impact.
 

J.D.

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#13
Get your emotions out of your thoughts. They will not lead to the right path. (I’m talking specifically about the shape of the ships, and not about those individuals who insult others with inscriptions on ships. Although in a certain sense this is also part of the RP of the game. Especially if the players decide to play pirates or misfits.)

Meta arises not as evil, but as the most effective form of interaction with the world. Even our organisms in real life are meta. Because it was effective and ensured survival. It's pretty much the same in the game.
Meta itself is not evil. This is simply an indicator of how everything works in the rules of the game and the game world. If they change, the meta will change.
And there is nothing wrong with the majority following the meta. This is a basic instinct of any organism, especially a thinking one. Use what gives maximum benefits at minimum costs.

Developers need to pay attention to what is happening. Only changing the rules of the game will change the meta. For example, increasing the speed of torpedoes by 1.5 times can greatly reduce the number of large cubic ships. In a large ship it is easier to hold a target designator so that the torpedo does not miss. Or a change in the efficiency of acceleration with increasing mass (for example, in the DU there was a kind of relativistic effect, which, when approaching the maximum speed, greatly increased the required thrust for acceleration). Developers have a lot of tools to regulate the game even without significantly changing the mechanics of projectile impact.
That’s a good point, I’ll admit. I don’t really think everyone who does this is really that type. But it definitely feels like it, and I’ve seen ships that literally have wrote those things on their ships that were box shaped. But overall, I see what you are saying. Boxes are just not fun rp wise in the game though. So hopefully in the future changes can make rp ships more viable.
 

Kenetor

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Aug 9, 2019
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#14
if memory serves, its VilleFB that was lead on the armour/damage design.
I've had very little want to get into PvP knowing how broken the system is, and while its alot LESS broken than it used to be (people used to stack floor plates instead) it obviously needs to be rethought from the ground up, as well as assessing if there is any new tech that could solve older problems that maybe the current system was designed around.
I would love to see healthy PvP that doesnt revolve around some cube ship with stacked anything,
Any solution though has to work across the board, that means for fighters and future larger multi crew war ships (if we EVER viably get them)
 

Colonkin

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#15
if memory serves, its VilleFB that was lead on the armour/damage design.
I've had very little want to get into PvP knowing how broken the system is, and while its alot LESS broken than it used to be (people used to stack floor plates instead) it obviously needs to be rethought from the ground up, as well as assessing if there is any new tech that could solve older problems that maybe the current system was designed around.
I would love to see healthy PvP that doesnt revolve around some cube ship with stacked anything,
Any solution though has to work across the board, that means for fighters and future larger multi crew war ships (if we EVER viably get them)
I highly doubt that there will be very large multi-turret ships with a large crew.
Just because it's quite difficult. Gather a lot of people in one place for an event. And not on one side, but on at least two. The pilot will have something to do. The shooters will sit online and wait for a possible attack. Which may not happen.

It also seems to me that in the future we will have to do something with YOLOL. As it stands, it is an unviable system. Especially during a conflict/battle of high intensity (YOLOL speed greatly depends on FPS and sudden lags) Moreover, programming torpedoes on them with only 2 chips is a questionable idea.

Alternatively, you need something like C#. And the blocks are like in SE. 20 chips for basic ship functions looks very painful. And it all works extremely slowly.
 
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
17
#16
if memory serves, its VilleFB that was lead on the armour/damage design.
I've had very little want to get into PvP knowing how broken the system is, and while its alot LESS broken than it used to be (people used to stack floor plates instead) it obviously needs to be rethought from the ground up, as well as assessing if there is any new tech that could solve older problems that maybe the current system was designed around.
I would love to see healthy PvP that doesnt revolve around some cube ship with stacked anything,
Any solution though has to work across the board, that means for fighters and future larger multi crew war ships (if we EVER viably get them)
Is Ville still around?

I'd like to hear more about what the earlier problems and changes were, if you remember the exact details.
Especially about the deal with stacking floorplates.
 

J.D.

Veteran endo
Joined
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Messages
222
#17
He’s also a heck of a builder, Ville is the one who made the faction ships. I’d like to know how he approaches ship building mentally in this game.
 
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