I am Just going to say this Once FB

[Venombrew]

it is impossible to make everyone happy, it is not going to happen. no matter how well a game comes out your always going to have people(mostly people who have no idea what it is like to create something from scratch and take a risk to do so) complaining that the game wasn't designed that suits THEIR needs. I say to them, go start a fund me page, get the obscene amount of money needed to create something on this level and HEY you got the game YOU wanted!

i personally prefer designers and developers that set out to create the game THEY WANTED. I like to play new games for new experiences, not the same exact one over and over again. Same reason for almost 2 decades WoW wasn't dethroned as the top MMO, because everyone kept setting out to make a carbon copy of the same game, with a different name. If you noticed the mmo titles that have survived next to WoW for all these years are nothing like WoW, they may be an mmo but there not WoW.

I want to play the DEVS game, not a crazy collection of contradicting arguements on who thinks this game needs to go where, even know NONE OF THEM has any real game development under the belt, lol beyond saying, "oh i do alpha testing". I have alpha tested countless games, doesn't make me a game designer. So why dont we give the devs a chance to bring their vision to form, before everyone else decides where their hard work should end up. Do you stand behind Bob Ross and dictate to him while he is doing a painting? Hell no you sit back and enjoy the happy accidents!

 

[Inc0gnit0]

I want to play the DEVS game, not a crazy collection of contradicting arguements on who thinks this game needs to go where, even know NONE OF THEM has any real game development under the belt, lol beyond saying, "oh i do alpha testing". I have alpha tested countless games, doesn't make me a game designer. So why dont we give the devs a chance to bring their vision to form, before everyone else decides where their hard work should end up. Do you stand behind Bob Ross and dictate to him while he is doing a painting? Hell no you sit back and enjoy the happy accidents!

If you do not give feedback, then only devs will play the game.
Already now we are seeing a colossal decline in online.
In less than a month, only SSC designers and radical miners will remain in the game.

This game sold itself as based on confrontation and interaction between players, but now we have a gameplay that does not require any communication with other people.

Money is needed for the success of development, and new players bring it, but how to attract new players if the old ones leave so quickly and the game has become so boring that it has almost been forgotten on Twitch?

 

[ivangrozniy]

If you do not give feedback, then only devs will play the game.
Already now we are seeing a colossal decline in online.
In less than a month, only SSC designers and radical miners will remain in the game.

This game sold itself as based on confrontation and interaction between players, but now we have a gameplay that does not require any communication with other people.

Money is needed for the success of development, and new players bring it, but how to attract new players if the old ones leave so quickly and the game has become so boring that it has almost been forgotten on Twitch?

Lauri kept saying they won't repeat the same mistakes Dual Universe did.. yet here we are. A game that should have revolved around conflict launched with basically nothing to do.

 

[J.D.]

"griefing" is a subjective term in all games. I hate the word, but lately, what comes to mind when i think of that word are certain types of pve people ive been lately, this year ish.

My philosophy has been gathered from this game, and others ive seen presently in development, where everyone is telling the pve dudes that the game will die if they have their way. Its not an opinion, itll actually die.

From any feedback i see a pve person give, they are ok with that, as long as they get to do what they want to do in safety. Ive literally seen multiple say it. After the game dies, they are like "well that was a good game!" "on to find another!" bunch of vampires sucking the life out of a game. ive heard alot of what people think is toxic that fit this description.

If i combine everything ive heard about what people think is toxic, and combine it it into one, I think of one very very successful game, and the number one most played mmo on steam. Go to steam, under catergories, press mmo, then press what is being played. Rust is at number one. Those numbers are facts. they are non negotiable, non debatable, hard evidence. No one on this forum has words clever enough to do gymnastics around that fact. It is true that Rust has pve/roleplay/ non kos servers, but they are massively outnumbered by the pvp, just incase anyone wants to try to throw that in there. This tells me that on games with large playerbases in one server, crazy pvp is adored. The pve people are underdogs.

Now, im not trying to sound like i am condoning toxicity. Ill give an example of somethings that happened to me in rust. As a new player, ive built bases trying to get more loot and all that stuff, didnt know a thing about the game. Ive had people ask if i need their help. Sure, id say. When i turned my back, i was killed, and my loot taken. its happened more than once. yea it sucks... But, you know what? im not mad about it. its kinda cool actually. Sure, at the time id be mad as hell, but once my meaningless emotions calmed down, im like, thats cool. Its a risk. its immersive. no one is holding my hand. So, i had to adapt, and learn what not to do, and not trust people under most conditions, while still being about to figure out who i can trust. Ive never had the heart to do that to someone, what was done to me. ive never done it, nor will i ever. But, i dont want that play style taken away. it gives that game that wild west feel that alot of us really enjoy.

I think ive heard that Gary Newman, the dude developing rust said that rust almost died because he listened to these vampires for a certain amount of time, and then said "**** it, im doing this my way" now look at the game. sure, there are people who curse it, who say this or that. who absolutely hate the game with every fiber of hate imaginable, but those people dont matter, because they are outnumbered by those who love the game. As a smart developer, if you want to make a game that will succeed, you gota look at the game type you are building, and ask yourself what will the bigger number of people like to do, that is, if you want the game to have a large player base.

My opinion is meaningless. What i like to do is not worth more than a turd, unless its shared by a much greater number of people. None of our opinions mean shit, unless its shared by the majority.

Starbase is its own game. there will be little mechanics here and there that the devs will invent to make the game more fun for us both. but, i post this to express the extreme importance of that freedom in non safe space for people to commit shenanigans.

If you dont care about the life of the game, and disregard the game's health to fit your play style, then, to me, you are a griefer. I include myself in this. If i wanted something that would kill the game, id be a griefer, because we are fighting for something that is hurting this game. I think that is pretty damn close to what Lauri would call a griefer from what he has expressed to me.

Pvp people are definitely NOT the only ones capable of grief.

 

[STEDIC]

The most concerning thing I've read about this game was the justification by someone on reddit how Starbase should emulate mine craft because a was the most successful building type game ever. Please done make space mine craft. Thanks

 

[ivangrozniy]

"griefing" is a subjective term in all games. I hate the word, but lately, what comes to mind when i think of that word are certain types of pve people ive been lately, this year ish.

My philosophy has been gathered from this game, and others ive seen presently in development, where everyone is telling the pve dudes that the game will die if they have their way. Its not an opinion, itll actually die.

From any feedback i see a pve person give, they are ok with that, as long as they get to do what they want to do in safety. Ive literally seen multiple say it. After the game dies, they are like "well that was a good game!" "on to find another!" bunch of vampires sucking the life out of a game. ive heard alot of what people think is toxic that fit this description.

If i combine everything ive heard about what people think is toxic, and combine it it into one, I think of one very very successful game, and the number one most played mmo on steam. Go to steam, under catergories, press mmo, then press what is being played. Rust is at number one. Those numbers are facts. they are non negotiable, non debatable, hard evidence. No one on this forum has words clever enough to do gymnastics around that fact. It is true that Rust has pve/roleplay/ non kos servers, but they are massively outnumbered by the pvp, just incase anyone wants to try to throw that in there. This tells me that on games with large playerbases in one server, crazy pvp is adored. The pve people are underdogs.

Now, im not trying to sound like i am condoning toxicity. Ill give an example of somethings that happened to me in rust. As a new player, ive built bases trying to get more loot and all that stuff, didnt know a thing about the game. Ive had people ask if i need their help. Sure, id say. When i turned my back, i was killed, and my loot taken. its happened more than once. yea it sucks... But, you know what? im not mad about it. its kinda cool actually. Sure, at the time id be mad as hell, but once my meaningless emotions calmed down, im like, thats cool. Its a risk. its immersive. no one is holding my hand. So, i had to adapt, and learn what not to do, and not trust people under most conditions, while still being about to figure out who i can trust. Ive never had the heart to do that to someone, what was done to me. ive never done it, nor will i ever. But, i dont want that play style taken away. it gives that game that wild west feel that alot of us really enjoy.

I think ive heard that Gary Newman, the dude developing rust said that rust almost died because he listened to these vampires for a certain amount of time, and then said "**** it, im doing this my way" now look at the game. sure, there are people who curse it, who say this or that. who absolutely hate the game with every fiber of hate imaginable, but those people dont matter, because they are outnumbered by those who love the game. As a smart developer, if you want to make a game that will succeed, you gota look at the game type you are building, and ask yourself what will the bigger number of people like to do, that is, if you want the game to have a large player base.

My opinion is meaningless. What i like to do is not worth more than a turd, unless its shared by a much greater number of people. None of our opinions mean shit, unless its shared by the majority.

Starbase is its own game. there will be little mechanics here and there that the devs will invent to make the game more fun for us both. but, i post this to express the extreme importance of that freedom in non safe space for people to commit shenanigans.

If you dont care about the life of the game, and disregard the game's health to fit your play style, then, to me, you are a griefer. I include myself in this. If i wanted something that would kill the game, id be a griefer, because we are fighting for something that is hurting this game. I think that is pretty damn close to what Lauri would call a griefer from what he has expressed to me.

Pvp people are definitely NOT the only ones capable of grief.

Yep, absolutely spot on... No one can argue against it simply because of the numbers. You can't chase 2 rabbits going different paths... the leg splits are going to be rather extreme.

 

[enjey]

... Rust is at number one. Those numbers are facts. they are non negotiable, non debatable, hard evidence. No one on this forum has words clever enough to do gymnastics around that fact. It is true that Rust has pve/roleplay/ non kos servers, but they are massively outnumbered by the pvp, just incase anyone wants to try to throw that in there. This tells me that on games with large playerbases in one server, crazy pvp is adored. The pve people are underdogs. ...

You cannot compare Rust to Starbase in this regard, at all. There are two major aspects that make a big difference and have enormous impact on pvp. For one, Rust has regular monthly wipes that have many reasons, but the most important one is to level the playing field and give new players and different groups a chance to compete. Starbase is persistent, so you need different mechanics to achieve this leveling of the playing field. The second major design difference is that Rust has many servers, Starbase is a single shard. The issue here is that with time there is always one group that concentrates all the power. The more power it has, the faster it's progression and nobody else can compete, ever. Players need hope in order to have fun, and when the outcome of every encounter is clear from the beginning, then there is no point trying. This is best seen in Ark, where the servers don't wipe so often, and you have many servers, where no new players join, because of the hopelessly overpowered groups that rule them. But they wipe nevertheless.

Regular wipes can't work here, however, since the audience expects... actually requires persistance. Last oasis just tried this in their last attemt to save the game, and it didn't work.

This is exptremely difficult to balance, but necessary, if you want to have a healthy pvp environment with enough new players to sustain the game for the years to come.

 

[ivangrozniy]

Regular wipes can't work here, however, since the audience expects... actually requires persistance. Last oasis just tried this in their last attemt to save the game, and it didn't work.

Balancing a game with frequent wipes and balancing a persistent game with game rules is a similar goal, though done with different means due to different types of games. In the long run, balancing a persistent world is an oxymoron. Shorter / multi-server mmos have wipes to suppress various issues like one faction taking over... in a persistent mmo this is impossible to avoid. And I think that's a good thing, it's part and parcel of a persistent mmo. If you can't beat them, join them. and divide them from inside if you really want to see multiple strong factions.

There's also an issue of, what exactly are you trying to balance in a persistent mmo? Is it PVP / PVE content? Is it safe zone resources vs rare materials outside of safe zone? Balancing PVP / PVE is also impossible. It's like trying to change the character and nature of a gamer. It won't happen. This balancing talk eventually will end up with a choice of direction. You can't chase two rabbits going different directions.

The other issue that Rust brings to the table clearly is that it has much quicker turnaround, the grind loop is very short and at the same time a lot more varied than Starbase. Even if you get everything stolen from you and you spawn naked again, you don't go "ow crap, I need to grind for 60 hours just to get my stuff back". It's the same thing with Space Engineers.. grind is quicker, you're on your feet faster, consequently you don't get too attached to your flying bricks when they blow up. Of course people will come up with all kinds of "griefing" arguments when they know that they will have to spend 30-40 hours grinding for the mats for the ship that they build in 2-4 weeks that some reee pvper just blew up with two volleys. This is the part that needs balancing desperately, not pvp/pve false dichotomies.

 

[enjey]

I totally agree, the cost of death in Starbase is much to high in terms of time investment, and makes the learning process painful and exhausting.

The balancing I'm talking about has nothing to do with pve, it's about a balance between new players joining and old players leaving the game. The fluctuation will always be there, but If the barrier to entry is too high and the number of new players is smaller then the leavers, this is not sustainable in the long run.

You can't avoid the emergence of big, powerful groups in persistent MMOs, but there are various ways to enable competition and to support new players and small groups while they progress. Flagging for pvp, level caps, capped group size, zerg-debuffs like disarray in albion, friendly fire, just to name a few. There is no "one size fits all" though, it depends on the game and often times it doesn't achieve the balance at all...

 

[J.D.]

I totally agree, the cost of death in Starbase is much to high in terms of time investment, and makes the learning process painful and exhausting.

The balancing I'm talking about has nothing to do with pve, it's about a balance between new players joining and old players leaving the game. The fluctuation will always be there, but If the barrier to entry is too high and the number of new players is smaller then the leavers, this is not sustainable in the long run.

You can't avoid the emergence of big, powerful groups in persistent MMOs, but there are various ways to enable competition and to support new players and small groups while they progress. Flagging for pvp, level caps, capped group size, zerg-debuffs like disarray in albion, friendly fire, just to name a few. There is no "one size fits all" though, it depends on the game and often times it doesn't achieve the balance at all...

how many times must we say there is a safe zone? if you leave the safe zone, yea you have a chance to lose every single thing you have. if you dont leave the safe zone, you will never lose a bolt. 100 percent guarantee. The devs will literally ban someone who even bumps you in a safe zone. not even exaggerating. flagging for pvp outside the safe zone is absurd. New players have a safe zone. i wish people would acknowledge this. There are no levels. so there cant be level caps. you cant use debuffs because this game doesnt have magic casting abilities. this isnt that type of game. You simply stay in the safe zone. why is this not enough? someone literally explain to me why everyone is ignoring the safe zone as a means to stay safe from pvp. i dont get it. organized pvp is the worst thing they can do for this game in the pvp side of the community. if they did it in the safe zone, sure that makes sense. But, not outside the safe zone. It makes pvp as a meaningless side event that doesnt have an impact on the universe. Risk vs reward, and it has a universe size impact on the economy. No danger makes the economy flood with supply, and the demand drops. worth of materials drops with that.

My comment about rust was to express the love for pvp a huge community loves to partake in. I also expressed that its easy to lose everything quickly, but the numbers are still doing well. yes, there is wipes. But, those wipes dont make losing everything any more enjoyable for anyone who loses everything before a wipe. Thats totally irrelevant. i also stated that this game is its own, and will have invented mechanics by the devs to make it fun for us both. you didnt read that part.

Once again, there is a safe zone that you can build an absolutely massive station, with everything you could ever dream of that can never be stolen, destroyed, even so much as people sitting around trying to annoy you. those people would be banned by the devs. literally. This safe zone is the safest mechanic i have ever seen in any game, by far. so, whats the problem? does everyone realize there are dynamic safe zones AND permanent safe zones?

 

[enjey]

...You simply stay in the safe zone. why is this not enough? someone literally explain to me why everyone is ignoring the safe zone as a means to stay safe from pvp. i dont get it...

The safe zone is a much needed starter space, but achieves absolutely nothing in terms of teaching the ropes of pvp. Let's agree that most players want to pvp. Since there is no combat related pve, they have to learn by fighting other players. They have to leave the safe zone in order to learn to aim, maneuver, reload, repair holes, hide, build better pvp ships, choose the right weapons for the situation... generally to learn everything related to combat. And they mine, buy a ship, buy a weapon, go out there, meet a crew of three with autocannons and die in two volleys without firing a single shot. Back to square one.

Most pvp players know, they will die a lot at start, while they learn and get better at shooting things in a new pvp game. They are generally used to and fine with this. Because of the large cost of death here however, and the time needed to recover, this process takes way too long and is too frustraiting for many. The safe zone is of no help, it just allows for safe mining to at least somewhat ease the recovery.

 

[Venombrew]

They have to leave the safe zone in order to learn to aim, maneuver, reload, repair holes, hide, build better pvp ships, choose the right weapons for the situation... generally to learn everything related to combat.

every bit of that is not even right, infact it is recommended you play with all those mechanics in the safe zone before leaving the safe zone. the only thing you do not get is actual player vs player content until you leave the safe zone. you need to learn how to use your firearms and the commands to do so, so you dont accidently shoot a hole in your ship like i have seen so many do. if anything dont pull your gun out while traveling in the non SZ until you need it or at very least hit B to keep it in rest so it can't be accidently fired, all things you can learn in the SZ.

if your the kind of player who joins the game, does the tutorial, gets their free ship for mining, goes buys a gun and heads right out into the non safe zone, you get whatever is coming your way for not being better prepared. why cant you learn to fly in the SZ? why can't you learn to fly and maneuver around the asteroids in the SZ? that one is probably more important, because a lot of people lose their ships to asteroids more often than pirates in the non safe zone. how can one build a better pvp ship when one is so new? shouldn't one learn the game first before assuming they know whats needed in ship pvp? and have you not seen people at the origin stations testing out their guns? everything you mentioned can be done and even better learned in peace in the SZ which is what almost any vet player will tell a new player.

 

[J.D.]

every bit of that is not even right, infact it is recommended you play with all those mechanics in the safe zone before leaving the safe zone. the only thing you do not get is actual player vs player content until you leave the safe zone. you need to learn how to use your firearms and the commands to do so, so you dont accidently shoot a hole in your ship like i have seen so many do. if anything dont pull your gun out while traveling in the non SZ until you need it or at very least hit B to keep it in rest so it can't be accidently fired, all things you can learn in the SZ.

if your the kind of player who joins the game, does the tutorial, gets their free ship for mining, goes buys a gun and heads right out into the non safe zone, you get whatever is coming your way for not being better prepared. why cant you learn to fly in the SZ? why can't you learn to fly and maneuver around the asteroids in the SZ? that one is probably more important, because a lot of people lose their ships to asteroids more often than pirates in the non safe zone. how can one build a better pvp ship when one is so new? shouldn't one learn the game first before assuming they know whats needed in ship pvp? and have you not seen people at the origin stations testing out their guns? everything you mentioned can be done and even better learned in peace in the SZ which is what almost any vet player will tell a new player.

yep. i agree. and, every single veteran player started at some point just like any new players that are to come.

 

[enjey]

...everything you mentioned can be done and even better learned in peace in the SZ which is what almost any vet player will tell a new player.

Thanks for the advice. Now let me return the favor: in case you will be playing new world next week, make sure you jump a while, crawl, and hit some rocks with your great axe before flagging for pvp. The more, the better. If you use trees instead of rocks, you would be truly unstoppable in pvp.

Jokes aside, I believe we might have different perspectives, but we all want Starbase to succeed. The game has a great foundation and the developer team is one of a kind, I have no doubt they will create something magnificent.

 

[Eranok]

I totally agree, the cost of death in Starbase is much to high in terms of time investment, and makes the learning process painful and exhausting.

The cost of dying in starbase is up to you. You define it.

Also: "How well does the game explain those dynamics to unfamiliar players?" "How casual should we expect the playerbase to be?" are other ways to approach this subject..

 

[ELES]

No worries. It's super frustrating to read those rants which have poorly veiled griefer agenda, and more than once I've been very tempted to call out such posts. Let's see if I can keep (moderately) calm in the future as well.

I mean, the player count has dropped to about 10% of original, /and is still going down/. Have you considered these players may not have an agenda when they say that something's wrong, even if you don't like their suggestions?

Secondly, please hire a Community Manager, and have them help coordinate official conversations. You regularly attack parts of your customer base for doubting your vision, which is not a particularly good look.

 

[Venombrew]

Thanks for the advice. Now let me return the favor: in case you will be playing new world next week, make sure you jump a while, crawl, and hit some rocks with your great axe before flagging for pvp. The more, the better. If you use trees instead of rocks, you would be truly unstoppable in pvp.

hey keep it up man, keep that mentality of running head first into danger without even testing the most basic mechanics of the game where it was meant for players to do so in a safe non pvp zone. players like you with zero patience are the same ones crying over, "pvp hard", "pvp not fun", while at the same time your belongings out there won't be yours for long.
impatient know it all's like you, reason my hangar is full of ships, well take what you don't properly protect.
WELCOME TO STARBASE!

 

[esabrats]

Lauri, reading this thread motivated me to sign up and give my support to your cause. I think you've got a really special thing going with Starbase, and the direction you're taking will pay off in the long run. If you double down on the creativity and imagination of your playerbase, such as you've been doing, I think not only will you end up with a healthier customer base, but a better paying one too. This latter point is because I think your customer base will skew more mature and with more disposable income. This crowd will look to get away from the immaturity and hostility that is all too rampant in every other online game. They will be looking to engage with a creative and passionate community that doesn't waste their time.

Of course there's fun in taking risks and being exposed to danger, but I think you've already said that you appreciate that and are looking to foster the right kind of it.

One more thought: the more mature (and higher paying) crowd doesn't have a lot of time. Putting a lot of effort into something and having it destroyed by other players with little skin in the game is a sure way to have them disengage. Another way is to require so much grind that they never engage in the first place. Eve has this problem, as do most MMOs. Unless you're designing this for a younger audience with a lot of free time, you might consider another look at the time investment required for travel, resource gathering, and research, as well as the time lost when ships are destroyed by accidents or during PVP.

I hope this helps, and I'm super excited to see your vision come to life!

 

[J.D.]

Lauri, seeing you under assault here from folks got me over the edge to sign up and give my support. I think you've got a really special thing going with Starbase, and the direction you're taking will pay off in the long run. I won't call them griefers as that seems to be a trigger word, but the crowd active in this thread whose fun comes at the expense of others will eventually leave and the game will be better for it. If you double down on the creativity and imagination of your playerbase, such as you've been doing, I think not only will you end up with a healthier customer base, but a better paying one too. This latter point is because I think your customer base will skew more mature and with more disposable income. This crowd will look to get away from the immaturity and hostility that is all too rampant in every other online game. They will be looking to engage with a creative and passionate community that doesn't waste their time.

Of course there's fun in taking risks and being exposed to danger, but I think you've already said that you appreciate that and are looking to foster the right kind of it.

One more thought: the more mature (and higher paying) crowd doesn't have a lot of time. Putting a lot of effort into something and having it destroyed by other players with little skin in the game is a sure way to have them disengage. Another way is to require so much grind that they never engage in the first place. Eve has this problem, as do most MMOs. Unless you're designing this for teenagers and school-age kids, you might consider another look at the time investment required for travel, resource gathering, and research, as well as the time lost when ships are destroyed by accidents or during PVP.

I hope this helps, and I'm super excited to see your vision come to life!

im interested to see these attacks. sounds pretty shitty. Can you quote them so we can all stand up against this behavior? Because i havent seen any. I have seen alot of people giving their opinion on wanting more pvp, But i have not seen any insults or anything towards Lauri. Can anyone provide proof of this? I mean, if you want to assume that "this crowd" is playing at the expense of others, maybe you should provide proof? you basically said that the people in this thread who want more pvp are here to grief, to purposely cause people pain. just to do it. you just accused all of us of that. So, lets see some proof dude. I mean, if im wrong, no problem. Those insults are a violation of code of conduct. But to me, your message just sounded like it was FULL of grief. Im pretty sure you wont respond because you dont have a quote. ill wait though. Lets see it. I mean, it shouldnt be hard to find it, your message painted this picture of the dev team being in this war zone of awful insults. sounds like there are alot of them. I wait anxiously to see them.

and Lauri, im not sure if others would agree with me, but i would like to see you call out these poorly veiled grief attempts. Maybe its a misunderstanding. I know there are people out there who arent worth a listen, but it would be bad if all of us pvp lovers paid for their misconduct. In fact, i believe that open communication with the pvp community can help with your vision, as long as you feel ill towards pvp people, you wont be apt to add any content. You said so yourself that it made you want to do the opposite. if people get too toxic, yall can just ban them because Code of Conduct if the conversation turns to insults.

 

[esabrats]

J.D., after seeing your reply I've edited my post. I hope that it's less inflammatory. I think it better represents what I wanted to say without the distraction associated with its original bite and critical tone.