Radar, ECM, and ECCM transmitter/receiver mechanics

Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
8
#1
No telling what sensors will be added into the game yet, since a single addition of a sensor may vastly change the gameplay/meta in unintended ways. That being said, it would open up a vast world of electronic warfare to see Radar implemented in ways that interacts with the existing transmitter/receiver device. From the wiki, we see a transmitter already has fields for transmit/receive ranges, frequencies, etc. A radar device could operate in similar ways, and the devices could be used together for things such as ship tracking, automation, weapon guidance, asteroid detection, and more. Most importantly, it adds depth to the current aspect of radio signals in game.

Radar works by emitting a pulse at a frequency, and then listening for the reflection off an object. The direction the reflection is received provides the object's relative direction in degrees from the radar, the strength of reflection indicates the size (or shape, or numbers) of the object, and the time it takes to receive the reflection gives us the range to the object.

First off, this would add a mechanic of passive or active signal use in-game. Do you stay stealthy and listen for other signals (passive), or do you constantly ping around to hunt for what's out there (active)? The transmitter can already listen and output an X,Y (listen angle, and pitch), but then you also have a matter of how many transmitters or radars do you have on your ship? What direction/s do they face? It could be costly to see everywhere--maybe you have to settle for a 30 degree cone in front of you.

Then there are all sorts of ECM and ECCM strategies that could be employed, such as listening to a radar ping and amplifying it back to make the source think there's a larger target, or jam the source by blinding it with massive amplification or noise. You could delay and return multiple artificial reflections to obscure your range. In an asteroid field, you may even be able to radar ping back towards the source so they pick up multiple reflections off the asteroids.

To counter this you have ECCM techniques, such as radar pinging at multiple frequency ranges and filtering out unwanted or unlikely returns to counter popular ECM techniques. Maybe you use multiple independent, smaller radar panels/sensors that sacrifice the sensitivity of a larger array to be able to triangulate a target in order to cut through ECM. It could all get very interesting.

It could even go as far as having meaningful choice of frequencies to use. For example, high frequencies are great for detecting edges and angles perpendicular to the radar. This could lead to more "stealthy" ship designs that attempt to avoid boxy shapes, or reflect away from the source. Low frequencies can help cut through this and see stealthier designs better, but are worse at identifying accurate direction or size of target, and may return false positives, making good radar use both high and low frequencies in different ways.


Like any other tech in the game, those who develop it will be faced with the choice of having an upper hand or releasing the tech to the open market and profiting from it, so there's hope for balance while introducing depth into the game.
 
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CalenLoki

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
741
#2
I'm all for some sort of detection. Getting attacked without knowing danger is anywhere near is just as annoying as being on guard duty and starring into the endless space for hours.

On the other hand I don't want the game to go the route of mandatory AI aimbot everywhere, like SE, EgS or FtD. There is a charm in manual firing the guns. And exposing enemy coordinates to Yolol will quite quickly lead to development of aimbots.

Also radars seem like the advantage of detection would be determined more in shipyard than on battlefield. That works in purely AI oriented games (FtD), but we're playing player - oriented game.


So I think that the best option would be heat sensors, rather than radars. The kind that detects targets based mostly on their actions (flying fast or shooting being the worst offenders).

They shouldn't give precise coordinates (i.e. divide the detection sphere into icosahedron - d20 dice, and give just the number of face where enemy is). Just enough to find enemy, useless for aimbots.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
12
#3
So I think that the best option would be heat sensors, rather than radars. The kind that detects targets based mostly on their actions (flying fast or shooting being the worst offenders).

They shouldn't give precise coordinates (i.e. divide the detection sphere into icosahedron - d20 dice, and give just the number of face where enemy is). Just enough to find enemy, useless for aimbots.
"Material statistics
Heat - Threshold and reflect value for heat status."

"Charodium - Heat resistant industrial metal. Used mainly as armor plating or general construction material when heat resistance is required."

Considering thermal insulation already seems to be a meaningful part of a ships design, heat sensors would be viable and fit into the game quite well. I do agree they shouldn't give information to the point of AI aiming.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
8
#4
I agree that auto-aiming turrets would remove something visceral from the game. Maybe there's a way to keep the detection aspect of radar for the purpose of playing hide & seek, and asteroid/resource exploring, and the YOLOL funtimes that would be apart of those, without it leading to auto-aiming. Reducing the resolution of the radar might work, such as using a D20 grid like Calen mentioned. It wouldn't prevent auto-aim, but it might make it sloppy enough that it doesn't compete with manned turrets.

Maybe there are other solutions, like having a long delay from detection to coords output. If there's a 5-10 second delay from a radar ping to the output, that might make it less useful for weapon targeting. There could still be creative ways of putting radar to use, but less in the rapid slewing of turrets sense.
 

DrunkRussianBear

Chancellor of the Argentavian Federation
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
313
#5
I agree that auto-aiming turrets would remove something visceral from the game. Maybe there's a way to keep the detection aspect of radar for the purpose of playing hide & seek, and asteroid/resource exploring, and the YOLOL funtimes that would be apart of those, without it leading to auto-aiming. Reducing the resolution of the radar might work, such as using a D20 grid like Calen mentioned. It wouldn't prevent auto-aim, but it might make it sloppy enough that it doesn't compete with manned turrets.

Maybe there are other solutions, like having a long delay from detection to coords output. If there's a 5-10 second delay from a radar ping to the output, that might make it less useful for weapon targeting. There could still be creative ways of putting radar to use, but less in the rapid slewing of turrets sense.
I feel like if the fire control system took a bit to aim and calculate the trajectory of the round it would work fine.
 

Metal

Active endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
33
#6
"Material statistics
Heat - Threshold and reflect value for heat status."

"Charodium - Heat resistant industrial metal. Used mainly as armor plating or general construction material when heat resistance is required."

Considering thermal insulation already seems to be a meaningful part of a ships design, heat sensors would be viable and fit into the game quite well. I do agree they shouldn't give information to the point of AI aiming.
More sensors the better, but the devs can just not make them over powered by giving them a 5km search.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
8
#7
It's a fair counterargument, that the devs have to be very careful with what sensors they add and/or how they limit them, given the ability to YOLOL program with them. There are many unintended consequences that could result. Radar is perhaps one of the more "dangerous" ones, in the sense that it can be adapted to control turrets and weapons tracking & guidance. It would have to be limited in ways that prevented auto-aiming turrets and such.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
12
#8
I think the biggest limitation to any YOLOL coding is the speed at which code is read. Auto aiming would only be useful against slow moving targets or ships flown in an extremely regular pattern (straight line at a constant speed). It would take some incredible ingenuity, and may not even be possible, to have multiple chips simultaneously running to increase aiming and radar readout speed enough to make auto-aiming turrets viable.
I don't think auto aiming turrets will be problematic unless they can accurately aim at long distances. If they are only effective at close range, it shouldn't be too difficult to take out a key sensor or a bit of wiring.
 

Guedez

Learned-to-sprint endo
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
24
#9
We could just get some frustrum scan that replies "something here or something not here".
Combine 9 of those and you can make a rudimentary target tracker, but considering how slow the YOLOL code executes, it might not be useful at all
 

Burnside

Master endo
Joined
Aug 23, 2019
Messages
308
#11
Honestly, just giving us different flavors of rangefinder that detect different types of qualities, some universal mod pieces for range, strength, resolutiob, and/or frequency, and then force use to build/program detection/countermeasure methods out of the bits and bobs seems more to flavor.
 
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