Something I have been wondering about, is how the developers are implementing their flight model. Specifically will ships behave as if there is zero drag in space with a set top speed, ie Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous or will ships behave as if there is drag and require constant thrust to maintain speed?If there was a "space drag" it wouldnt necessarily be realistic, but it would increase the importance of fuel management and reduce overall player spread from the original starting locations.
Space Drag?
- Thread starter Bjornshu
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having drag in starbase might sound weird but here is some rough reasons to why there is drag in a space game: 1. people will not be able to fly forever, making the game more challenging. 2. people won't be loading chunks to quickly 3. if you accidentally loose cargo at 150m/s it will stop therefor saving it from travelling through space 4. people wont be able to launch ships at max speed and leave them flying through space with the sole purpose of lagging peoples game 5. Players won't be able to use asteroids as long range super weapons. Therefor with the drag slowing down the asteroids before someone blows your ship to particles. So simply: if someone speeds up an asteroid it will slow down after a while therefor minimizing the catastrophical damage. 6. And of course for performance reasons This is a simple explanation but yeah it's enough to understand why.
If you hate space drag, blame the speed of light, not the game.
Similar to other games' speed models, the 150m/s cap is the upper limit of a power/weight curve. I don't think any ship will ever hit 150m/s speed - this would require zero weight and full power. Instead, ships will find a place to live in between. You can put on more engines to go faster at the cost of burning extra fuel; diminishing returns means each additional engine makes you only slightly faster but much more inefficient. I'd estimate the fastest ships will achieve somewhere in the range of 120m/s but I cannot yet account for all the required internals like generators and fuel rods and so on, so it might be less.
One thing of great note is... Starbase as an MMO means we can and likely will see changes to this model over time. If performance allows it, and new tech comes online, we might see interesting things here. Note that in one of the videos, when they showed the Durability Tool, you can see a "Ship warp class" identifier on the HUD. I'm very excited to see how the game develops over time.
That video, for reference:
Similar to other games' speed models, the 150m/s cap is the upper limit of a power/weight curve. I don't think any ship will ever hit 150m/s speed - this would require zero weight and full power. Instead, ships will find a place to live in between. You can put on more engines to go faster at the cost of burning extra fuel; diminishing returns means each additional engine makes you only slightly faster but much more inefficient. I'd estimate the fastest ships will achieve somewhere in the range of 120m/s but I cannot yet account for all the required internals like generators and fuel rods and so on, so it might be less.
One thing of great note is... Starbase as an MMO means we can and likely will see changes to this model over time. If performance allows it, and new tech comes online, we might see interesting things here. Note that in one of the videos, when they showed the Durability Tool, you can see a "Ship warp class" identifier on the HUD. I'm very excited to see how the game develops over time.
That video, for reference:
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I'm not at all talking about going the speed of light. What I hate about space drag has nothing at all to do with the speed of light. I know we will never get anywhere near that speed. But space drag sucks because if you wanted to throw things through space with no engines, space drag would slow them down and stop them. So you can't build space bombers that carry an explosive device on them and release them from far away while flying at their target. Or you can't build catapult like weapons to launch explosive devices at targets because without engines/thrusters space drag would slow them down making them never reach the target or slow enough that the enemy can easily shoot them before they reach their base. Space drag greatly limits the possible weapon systems players could build. Instead we will be forced to build much more costly weapons with engines on them to make sure they can even reach the target. So the speed of light is in no way at fault here.
While I'd love a game that could smoothly calculate potentially infinite number of objects in space continuing on their velocities forever, that just isn't possible.
Space drag, while annoying, is necessary when so many players are together to reduce load on the servers. The client side calculations aspect makes this even more prevalent, because your computer would have to keep track of objects outside your render distance that might intersect with your ship. It's just too much for any computer system to handle and run smoothly.
Space drag means non-ship objects (improvised projectiles, debris, etc,) will eventually stop moving, and then despawn once out of render distance if the object is too small (there's been some talk about large wrecks remaining, but I don't know what the final word on that is).
Sure this is unrealistic when talking about space, and removes weapons like ultra-long range railguns, but:
1, it means less melting computers.
2, less potential for lag abuse (purposefully causing lag by forcing computers to run too many calculations).
3. don't have to worry about a simulated Kessler Syndrome!
4. adds logistical challenges like managing fuel on long flights.
Space drag, while annoying, is necessary when so many players are together to reduce load on the servers. The client side calculations aspect makes this even more prevalent, because your computer would have to keep track of objects outside your render distance that might intersect with your ship. It's just too much for any computer system to handle and run smoothly.
Space drag means non-ship objects (improvised projectiles, debris, etc,) will eventually stop moving, and then despawn once out of render distance if the object is too small (there's been some talk about large wrecks remaining, but I don't know what the final word on that is).
Sure this is unrealistic when talking about space, and removes weapons like ultra-long range railguns, but:
1, it means less melting computers.
2, less potential for lag abuse (purposefully causing lag by forcing computers to run too many calculations).
3. don't have to worry about a simulated Kessler Syndrome!
4. adds logistical challenges like managing fuel on long flights.
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我希望能够增加人工虫洞这种设定，飞船速度慢一点也没关系，重点是能够快速远程旅行。依靠现代喷气式客机的速度在宇宙中飞行实在是太不像话了！
I hope to increase the setting of artificial wormholes. It doesn't matter if the spacecraft is slower, the point is to be able to travel long distances quickly. It's ridiculous to fly in space relying on the speed of a modern jetliner!
I hope to increase the setting of artificial wormholes. It doesn't matter if the spacecraft is slower, the point is to be able to travel long distances quickly. It's ridiculous to fly in space relying on the speed of a modern jetliner!
Hmm. Much like the lack of realistic radar, the reason we have space drag in Starbase is the speed of light - in reality. Computers can only process so fast, and an update from one computer to another takes a really, really long time relative to the data that needs to be sent. The speed of light, in reality, is slow, for the purposes of simulating and modeling reality-based systems in computers.
As the game needs to keep 100's of objects in sync and handle interpolation and extrapolation for those objects - guessing where the object will be in the future for each client (one of the biggest issues for Starbase, and you can see the desync in a lot of the videos) - if everything could travel faster and faster with no 'space drag' the warping and client updating would desync even more and the game would look like a mess a lot of the time.
This is because of the latency it takes for the computers to calculate what is going on and send that data to everyone else - the speed of light. That's our main issue, and will always be a huge issue in gaming. It's so slow. When your computer talks to another client who happens to be around the world for you, that 300ms delay between you two is as good as it can get. The speed of light means 300ms - or about 1/3rd of one second - is as fast as you will be able to communicate with that person, ever, unless we can find a way to break the laws of physics. A lot can happen in 300ms, so the desync that occurs in those situations only increases as the 'speed' at which players move around increases. If we don't have any space drag and players can hit 500m/s, or 1000m/s and so on, the issues are exponential in terms of game feel and performance. And since this is a multiplayer MMO game, it needs to be consistent and have certain rules which make it fair and fun to play. As such, space drag has been introduced so the game doesn't have to lie to you - like Elite: Dangerous - that you're going ultra-fast when in reality it's just another layer of gameplay far removed from anyone seeing what speed you're actually going. The space drag ensures clients from all around the world can talk to each other within reason and have ample time to process the incoming data - and that players can react to that information in reasonable time as well.
If the speed of light were faster, and we could process complex information much faster than the response time of the human brain, we'd be able to have complex systems without any noticeable side effects like warping and desync. Then you wouldn't really care to have space drag and you could open up the limits of gaming.
On a side note, most weapons in Starbase fire much faster than 150m/s and I think the torpedo will travel faster than that as well - meaning you should be able to create some interesting system, maybe parking outside render range of an enemy and riding a torpedo in to attack the enemy ship, manually guiding it in to target, jumping off at the last second. So there might be some ways to have fun with the system.
The bottom line is space drag exists for gameplay reasons that are present because the speed of light is slow. This doesn't even take into account the human response time in dealing with fast moving objects and so on, which is equally important a consideration. It's just to make for good gameplay. It will feel more like a game and less like some perfect space-sim, and this is good, as the game needs to appeal to a wide range of gamers and players from all backgrounds from all around the world. I hope this sheds some light on 'why space drag' - and helps you get into the mindset that the game, and gameplay comes first. Imagine shooting at a ship, as a player with a rifle, when it is going 1000m/s. Good luck.
I personally see no issue with this. A catapult for example is just storing work to then unleash a projectile. Just like an engine which is storing work in the form of fuel to then propel the same weapon - though the expenditure of the work is over time, not all at once. I like that there will be a market for cheap, engine-based weapon delivery systems in Starbase, which can be intercepted and salvaged by the person being attacked if they are aware enough to notice the weapon. In a system with no drag, your same base argument could be applied (limited to what kinds of weapons); there would be no need for inefficient engine-based systems when it's easier to just 'catapult' your weapon at the enemy, effectively removing those kinds of weapons from play (though I know, you could use engines, but it would not make sense to have engines firing the entire time towards a target - effectively making any such design obsolete). Such is gaming, limiting the possibilities of players for the sake of gameplay.
Ah, I didn't know this. This would mean the top of the curve is more like 200m/s, and 150m/s is the max any ship would be able to likely go on that curve. Interesting. I'll keep my eyes out for more information on this.
As the game needs to keep 100's of objects in sync and handle interpolation and extrapolation for those objects - guessing where the object will be in the future for each client (one of the biggest issues for Starbase, and you can see the desync in a lot of the videos) - if everything could travel faster and faster with no 'space drag' the warping and client updating would desync even more and the game would look like a mess a lot of the time.
This is because of the latency it takes for the computers to calculate what is going on and send that data to everyone else - the speed of light. That's our main issue, and will always be a huge issue in gaming. It's so slow. When your computer talks to another client who happens to be around the world for you, that 300ms delay between you two is as good as it can get. The speed of light means 300ms - or about 1/3rd of one second - is as fast as you will be able to communicate with that person, ever, unless we can find a way to break the laws of physics. A lot can happen in 300ms, so the desync that occurs in those situations only increases as the 'speed' at which players move around increases. If we don't have any space drag and players can hit 500m/s, or 1000m/s and so on, the issues are exponential in terms of game feel and performance. And since this is a multiplayer MMO game, it needs to be consistent and have certain rules which make it fair and fun to play. As such, space drag has been introduced so the game doesn't have to lie to you - like Elite: Dangerous - that you're going ultra-fast when in reality it's just another layer of gameplay far removed from anyone seeing what speed you're actually going. The space drag ensures clients from all around the world can talk to each other within reason and have ample time to process the incoming data - and that players can react to that information in reasonable time as well.
If the speed of light were faster, and we could process complex information much faster than the response time of the human brain, we'd be able to have complex systems without any noticeable side effects like warping and desync. Then you wouldn't really care to have space drag and you could open up the limits of gaming.
On a side note, most weapons in Starbase fire much faster than 150m/s and I think the torpedo will travel faster than that as well - meaning you should be able to create some interesting system, maybe parking outside render range of an enemy and riding a torpedo in to attack the enemy ship, manually guiding it in to target, jumping off at the last second. So there might be some ways to have fun with the system.
The bottom line is space drag exists for gameplay reasons that are present because the speed of light is slow. This doesn't even take into account the human response time in dealing with fast moving objects and so on, which is equally important a consideration. It's just to make for good gameplay. It will feel more like a game and less like some perfect space-sim, and this is good, as the game needs to appeal to a wide range of gamers and players from all backgrounds from all around the world. I hope this sheds some light on 'why space drag' - and helps you get into the mindset that the game, and gameplay comes first. Imagine shooting at a ship, as a player with a rifle, when it is going 1000m/s. Good luck.
I personally see no issue with this. A catapult for example is just storing work to then unleash a projectile. Just like an engine which is storing work in the form of fuel to then propel the same weapon - though the expenditure of the work is over time, not all at once. I like that there will be a market for cheap, engine-based weapon delivery systems in Starbase, which can be intercepted and salvaged by the person being attacked if they are aware enough to notice the weapon. In a system with no drag, your same base argument could be applied (limited to what kinds of weapons); there would be no need for inefficient engine-based systems when it's easier to just 'catapult' your weapon at the enemy, effectively removing those kinds of weapons from play (though I know, you could use engines, but it would not make sense to have engines firing the entire time towards a target - effectively making any such design obsolete). Such is gaming, limiting the possibilities of players for the sake of gameplay.
Ah, I didn't know this. This would mean the top of the curve is more like 200m/s, and 150m/s is the max any ship would be able to likely go on that curve. Interesting. I'll keep my eyes out for more information on this.
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Wow you are completely not at all understanding what I am saying. WHERE!!!!! AT WHAT POINT DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT GOING AT SPEEDS OF 1000m/s OR THE SPEED OF LIGHT?!? 
I'm talking about just being able to launch things at a fast speed and have them not slow down and/or stop before they get to their target. If the max speed any object can go is like 150m/s or 200m/s then okay. But what I don't want is to throw an object at max speed and then have it just slow down and stop, and just not make it there. I want objects to retain their speed. I never said I wanted to make things go faster and faster until you are going 1000m/s or more. I don't know why you would think I wanted that or how else to explain it to you, but I never once said anything about going at such high speeds. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm talking about just being able to launch things at a fast speed and have them not slow down and/or stop before they get to their target. If the max speed any object can go is like 150m/s or 200m/s then okay. But what I don't want is to throw an object at max speed and then have it just slow down and stop, and just not make it there. I want objects to retain their speed. I never said I wanted to make things go faster and faster until you are going 1000m/s or more. I don't know why you would think I wanted that or how else to explain it to you, but I never once said anything about going at such high speeds. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Nowhere did you say this, which is why I had to come up with a mid-range number to satisfy my analogies. Weapon projectiles fire at upwards of 1700m/s from what the devs have said and what the videos show (projectiles leave render in ~3 seconds, 5km render range, ~1700m/s projectile speed).
Me too. I think everyone here would want that including the devs. However it is beyond the technical limitations of modern computing to make that kind of system work in a multiplayer MMO that is going to attempt to have thousands of players in the same area.
Define fast, to you. 1000m/s isn't too fast, to me - about the speed of a real-world rifle bullet. 150m/s ship speed is quite slow. I recognize we need these limitations to make the game work. What is fast to you? How fast do you want some thrown projectile to move to satisfy your want? Then we can discuss if it is feasible for gameplay mechanics. If it is anywhere under 500m/s there's not much difference overall than a ship with engines on it.
Part of how Starbase will enable such large player numbers in the same, single universe, is by use of peer-to-peer technology. This means someone does have to be in range of stuff happening, or else it doesn't happen, so to speak. This is a limitation, a trade off, for having a large volume of players in the same universe. As such, there's no server tracking floating objects through unoccupied 'space' over long distances. Someone has to be there to see it happen. If Starbase had servers tracking and calculating all the floating objects, it would become a server-based game, with all the latency lag and bottlenecking that server-based games have when it comes to these kinds of things. Games have been doing server-based forever, and always they must limit the number of players - usually to 60 or so maximum players - to make sure player experience remains constant. Starbase, with its main focus on making sure players are talking to each other, can handle much more, maybe hundreds of players, in the same area talking to each other. For this, they have to give up a lot of the 'benefits' of a server model, such as the server processing random stuff happening far away from any online player. It will be a much different world, and is so pioneering that we don't really know what to expect. Likewise, there are probably a lot of industry leaders who are going to be watching Starbase to see how it works out. It could change MMO gaming on its head as every game could realize they could have hundreds of players in the same area and just have the player clients do the communication work. This offloads server load to clients, not the server, so the servers can do other important things. Down the line, maybe Starbase can incorporate more traditional server technology as a layer on top of the existing peer-to-peer model to track offline stuff more, where certain things can run offline and away from players. For now, I'm more than happy with what is currently being advertised; a single universe full of players who are all affecting that same universe - no traditional servers, no shards, no players phasing in and out of your local server space. Just a true single universe full of players. For that, there are trade offs, and I think those trade offs are worth it.
Me too. I think everyone here would want that including the devs. However it is beyond the technical limitations of modern computing to make that kind of system work in a multiplayer MMO that is going to attempt to have thousands of players in the same area.
Define fast, to you. 1000m/s isn't too fast, to me - about the speed of a real-world rifle bullet. 150m/s ship speed is quite slow. I recognize we need these limitations to make the game work. What is fast to you? How fast do you want some thrown projectile to move to satisfy your want? Then we can discuss if it is feasible for gameplay mechanics. If it is anywhere under 500m/s there's not much difference overall than a ship with engines on it.
Part of how Starbase will enable such large player numbers in the same, single universe, is by use of peer-to-peer technology. This means someone does have to be in range of stuff happening, or else it doesn't happen, so to speak. This is a limitation, a trade off, for having a large volume of players in the same universe. As such, there's no server tracking floating objects through unoccupied 'space' over long distances. Someone has to be there to see it happen. If Starbase had servers tracking and calculating all the floating objects, it would become a server-based game, with all the latency lag and bottlenecking that server-based games have when it comes to these kinds of things. Games have been doing server-based forever, and always they must limit the number of players - usually to 60 or so maximum players - to make sure player experience remains constant. Starbase, with its main focus on making sure players are talking to each other, can handle much more, maybe hundreds of players, in the same area talking to each other. For this, they have to give up a lot of the 'benefits' of a server model, such as the server processing random stuff happening far away from any online player. It will be a much different world, and is so pioneering that we don't really know what to expect. Likewise, there are probably a lot of industry leaders who are going to be watching Starbase to see how it works out. It could change MMO gaming on its head as every game could realize they could have hundreds of players in the same area and just have the player clients do the communication work. This offloads server load to clients, not the server, so the servers can do other important things. Down the line, maybe Starbase can incorporate more traditional server technology as a layer on top of the existing peer-to-peer model to track offline stuff more, where certain things can run offline and away from players. For now, I'm more than happy with what is currently being advertised; a single universe full of players who are all affecting that same universe - no traditional servers, no shards, no players phasing in and out of your local server space. Just a true single universe full of players. For that, there are trade offs, and I think those trade offs are worth it.
I'd love if performance increases could get us up close to 300m/s, but we laready have the problem that missiles (rockets) travel at 150m/s and torpedoes are slower and seem to be the first type of self-guided non-player "ship" (that explodes (intentionally)). Raising the speedcap means refactoring missile weapons to account. Currently hitting the speed wall while using missiles is, so far as we can tell... very unsafe.