You know what would make players more likely to leave the origin safe zone?

Foraven

Veteran endo
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
138
#21
Everythiong comes down to a fact that there is no economy at all. All resources are ridicolously abundant and easly avaible everywhere, and produced parts aren't more valuable than resources they are produced out of(mostly).
Since there is nothging to figh over ships aren;t destroyed and produced, that again would be required to run economy,
There are no trade hubs outside of safezone, no fights over territory, becouse there is nothing to trade or fight over really.
Most efficient and easiest way is to just safely mine stuff to produce bigger mining ships.
I remember everyone was instincively exided about moon gate as a choke point to something more valuable - that factions would wan't to fight over.
But NOPE devs busiworked to make sure there is no choke point and noone can control acess to resources creating shortages.
But they reduced safe zones at the moon gate and Moon City, returned the graveyard and large resources craters cannot be owned, only fought over. There is plenty of opportunities for PVP on the moon and around it. Fighting over resources for control isn't there yet but we can at least find people now.
 

DivineEvil

Well-known endo
Joined
Nov 9, 2020
Messages
63
#22
You are correct. But first, developers need to do a number of things:
1) Introduce a cargo container for products into the game. Even if it is larger than the largest detail in the game. It would be logical. Each part has a volume in kv. This container should also have volume and be filled with parts and ores.
Well, to make that happen we first need the Inventory v2 to support volume-based limitations, as I've previously written in one of the update note threads. A lot depends on that already. Various modular crates of different sizes and purposes are in the works, but I still wonder if the modular inventory is something you offer as the first step in cargo technology. We have CLB and CLF and Tractor Beams and can attach stuff with bolts. Introducing the modular crates into early game heavily devalues all the forthcoming technologies apart from the Towing Beam.

Local scarcity would work even with the current environment. It already works with moon-specific ores. You could even do that with more common asteroid ores by scaling the maximum fraction of such ores in the asteroid volume (instead of trying to attach a whole new parameter of purity). You could do ore hotspots not by increasing the chance of an asteroid carrying the ore to spawn, but instead by making asteroids in such hot spots that have the ore dominating over the substrate material, to the point where asteroids can consist entirely out of the ore. I bet people would fight for such spots, but the problem with it is that lack of refining makes it waaay too effective and would break the economy even more than it already is.

2) Finally make a normal market. Because the current auction is a parody of it. Why was it necessary to separate lots with the same price? (there is a simple principle - first come - first sold). Why can't I place a buy order? (This is true for both miners and manufacturers. Some see a need, while others do not need to constantly monitor the market).Why ignore the previous experience of other games and make such a poor auction interface?
Indeed. I was speaking about buy orders since the introduction of the AH. Before I got hooked to SB, I have been playing Crossout - a Russian vehicular combat game. Played 3200 hours to this day. They have the market model that you and I are aware of - the system where all orders of the same value are grouped into one block (although in XO they choose the orders to fulfill randomly from the bidders). And they have buy orders, because those orders inform the demand. At this moment we can only evaluate the supply. That is a great impediment to SB economy foundation.

In my personal opinion, all trading stations have to have a dynamic economy simulation. Selling ore to the station replenishes station supply and drives the reward down, making it better to sell ores that the station doesn't have in abundance. This ore supply is then linked to the station's shops. Shop sells completed parts, which the station can manufacture to a set number, using the ores it have been provided with and the items that players have sold through the Shop interface. Abundace of parts drop the price to buy and the reward for selling. Station cannot reproduce more advanced parts, but can sell them if players will sell such parts first. All these linked parameters are self-compensating, meaning that all shortages and excesses will automatically level out to norm over time to prevent freezes in player-station interactions, and changes to costs and rewards applies over time as well to avoid immediate exploitation.

3) Allow players to place a market on their stations. Even in the form of a very very expensive module with the maximum size of the station. Placement requirements can be balanced.
I really don't think that a player station is a viable position for an entire AH, but I prefer for the players to be able to place Shop Interfaces the same way we now can do so for ship docks and resource networks. Players then would build various shops on their stations and moon bases, instead of just relying on a massive module providing all functionality.
 

Colonkin

Active endo
Joined
Apr 29, 2022
Messages
31
#23
Various modular crates of different sizes and purposes are in the works, but I still wonder if the modular inventory is something you offer as the first step in cargo technology. We have CLB and CLF and Tractor Beams and can attach stuff with bolts. Introducing the modular crates into early game heavily devalues all the forthcoming technologies apart from the Towing Beam.
CLB and CLF don't quite fit what I'm talking about. These technologies are good for transporting ship parts and asteroids. However, they are not at all suitable for at least 100 pieces of goods for building a base, for example. Because the carrier will take longer to place it than to transport it. Spare parts of capital ships could also be transported to the docking site. In general, we are talking about new parts and transportation from the place of manufacture to the place of use of a large number of different parts.
The high volume of base building could involve large volumes of moving parts instead of making them locally. But the developers have simplified the progress of the technology tree and this is sad.

Indeed. I was speaking about buy orders since the introduction of the AH. Before I got hooked to SB, I have been playing Crossout - a Russian vehicular combat game. Played 3200 hours to this day. They have the market model that you and I are aware of - the system where all orders of the same value are grouped into one block (although in XO they choose the orders to fulfill randomly from the bidders). And they have buy orders, because those orders inform the demand. At this moment we can only evaluate the supply. That is a great impediment to SB economy foundation.
I also played Crossout. However, I played more in EVE Online (more than 3000 hours). The EVE market model is one of the most viable and convenient. In addition to the market structure itself, I would introduce a fee for placing an order (for example, 1% of the proceeds). This would be one of the money recycling taps. If we consider the economy as the basis of everything (including as the basis of hostilities and not the banal shooting of miners).
I don't understand at all why FB didn't use any of the current successful market models from other MMOs. Mystery.

I really don't think that a player station is a viable position for an entire AH, but I prefer for the players to be able to place Shop Interfaces the same way we now can do so for ship docks and resource networks. Players then would build various shops on their stations and moon bases, instead of just relying on a massive module providing all functionality.
Maybe I described the model incorrectly. Since the game assumes that players can develop the universe themselves, we are talking about player stations in deep space. There they could repair, refuel, sell and buy the necessary ores. The placement of AHs at the station must be balanced. For example, the maximum size of a station. Placement of special cargo modules on the page for the functioning of the market. Availability of sufficient energy. The space is large and points of interest could be formed by the players themselves. If only they had the tools.
 

DivineEvil

Well-known endo
Joined
Nov 9, 2020
Messages
63
#24
CLB and CLF don't quite fit what I'm talking about. These technologies are good for transporting ship parts and asteroids. However, they are not at all suitable for at least 100 pieces of goods for building a base, for example. Because the carrier will take longer to place it than to transport it. Spare parts of capital ships could also be transported to the docking site. In general, we are talking about new parts and transportation from the place of manufacture to the place of use of a large number of different parts.
The high volume of base building could involve large volumes of moving parts instead of making them locally. But the developers have simplified the progress of the technology tree and this is sad.
I understand, but again, that requires Inventory 2.0 to be implemented in order to support item stacking, fluid item slot numbers and limitations based on volume. Otherwise using the current model, carrying massive ship/station modules in a volume of current standard cargo crate would beyond overpowered.
I also played Crossout. However, I played more in EVE Online (more than 3000 hours). The EVE market model is one of the most viable and convenient. In addition to the market structure itself, I would introduce a fee for placing an order (for example, 1% of the proceeds). This would be one of the money recycling taps. If we consider the economy as the basis of everything (including as the basis of hostilities and not the banal shooting of miners).
I don't understand at all why FB didn't use any of the current successful market models from other MMOs. Mystery.
Maybe they just didn't finalize their idea at that point. I've only played EVE once and instantly realized it wasn't the game I would like if I just had to spend time there to level up and unlock stuff, so i don't know how their market works either.

Otherwise mostly agree, though I would even make a %5 placement tax by reducing the current market tax of 10% to 5% also.
Maybe I described the model incorrectly. Since the game assumes that players can develop the universe themselves, we are talking about player stations in deep space. There they could repair, refuel, sell and buy the necessary ores. The placement of AHs at the station must be balanced. For example, the maximum size of a station. Placement of special cargo modules on the page for the functioning of the market. Availability of sufficient energy. The space is large and points of interest could be formed by the players themselves. If only they had the tools.
I think more about the ability of station owners for profiting from their stations, instead of allowing others to profit from station's position all by themselves. If a station is located near a source of a material, other visitors of the station can use AH to sell ores in front of the owner. At very least that AH should be adjustable for taxes that the owners would receive from all transactions. I'd personally prefer to have the locaziled trade interfaces first, so that owners would be in full control of what they offer and purchase from others. And of course we need the ability to open the safe zone for everyone if we desire, which seem to be missing at this moment.
 
Last edited:

shado20

Veteran endo
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
185
#25
i played eve online for over 11 years
i was hoping that after we get out and away from origin, as long as your in your/faction bases money is not a need, as its all your property...
 

Colonkin

Active endo
Joined
Apr 29, 2022
Messages
31
#26
Maybe they just didn't finalize their idea at that point. I've only played EVE once and instantly realized it wasn't the game I would like if I just had to spend time there to level up and unlock stuff, so i don't know how their market works either.

Otherwise mostly agree, though I would even make a %5 placement tax by reducing the current market tax of 10% to 5% also.
There, in a simplified form, it does not work that way.
There is a tax (which is set by the owner of the station). If this is an NPC, then the rate is fixed for a certain region. If the owner is private, then he can change this value in the range.
And separately there is a broker's commission for placing an order on the market.
What is the difference? The tax is deducted on sale. Commission is charged when placing an order. And for those who like to interrupt bets, it sometimes hurts quite a lot. By the way, in the same EVE, you can reduce tax rates with skills.
So the station owner's income is a tax. By the way, there may be a tax on production (a matter of mechanics and balance).
The broker's commission is simply a withdrawal of money from the game.
 
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