Warp trace

[Cavilier210]

Far too much pandering to those who ultimately just want a single player game. Safe zones, safety, all of that. Ya, those are important sure. But safe zone are literally all over the place and such people are still not happy.

Now PvP of any sort of meaning is gated behind cap ships. Which they want us to fight for other groups benefits in the meantime. Join other people's battles to get PvP. Thats not really enticing. I want to fight for a goal. And helping random despot group X is not my idea of fun or incentive too partake.

/salty

 

[Distuth]

What's stopping you from setting up an ambush at the warp trail?
What prevents you from hiring guards for money?

I only agree about the "accurate" cooridates. I think it's fair if the coordinates are obtained with an error, and the closer the moment the warp trail disappeared, the higher the error.

Or do you want players to go to an unknown place where no one will find them...to mine there on cheap ships without the risk of being found? and then they bring 50,000 stacks of expensive ore to the origins, turning the work of ordinary miners into dust?? and turning the entire economy into dust?


I agree that we need to find an option that will satisfy many people. that's why I created this thread as a "discussion" thread.
Anyone who has 100 million to build capital and brings in 100 billion worth of ore from mining on capital can pay money to mercenaries who will guard the warp trail. this will give interesting gameplay.

As I said above, without the ability to track warp trace, we will get a dead economy and will be deprived of gameplay.
Companies will commit to the unknown, and from there bring in 1000000 tons of expensive ore with absolutely no risk.
this means that all mining with the risks that were before the capitals will be devalued. hundreds of hours of mining will become dust. we need to come up with something to prevent this from happening.

,,,,,,,,,
if there is no way to trace the capital jump, if there is no risk to its owner, then the game cycle will look like this
1) Laborer
2) Amphitrite
3) Capital
4) Month of mining
5) Billionaire
6) Deleting the game.

I do in fact want players to go to unknown places no one will find them. And come back and make ridiculous amounts of money. Because what do they do when that works? They build more stuff, so they can do so more efficiently. They make bigger areas. They recruit more miners to a "safe" place where they can make massive profits.

That is how you get things that worth attacking in the first place. If every time JoeBob the miner tries to set up a camp, he gets tracked back to it and camped, he doesn't shrug and "git gud". He stops playing. If you want an actual juicy target to go after instead of an emaciated miner in a crap ship because his better ones keep getting blown up, you need to let them fatten up a little first.


Still. There is a balance to be struck. I'm of the opinion that heat tracking is going to solve this problem on it's own, and therefore we don't need to track where capital ships launch from. But that heavily depends on how far heat tracking works. If heat tracking doesn't have enough range, then yeah, some form of capital ship following may be necessary, at least to get people into the general area where heat tracking can take over.

Oh. And as for the "hire mercenaries to guard the point" thing. That doesn't work. We don't have actual wages to pay someone to sit and wait 8 hours for the one encounter that might happen during that. This is a game. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind want to do the job we pay people a pretty reasonable salary for in real life for in game credits?

You do seem to like suggesting features though. Maybe you can come up with something to make that interesting?

 

[pavvvel]

if players go to unknown places where no one will find them, it will become a casual horror. this will cut off the game from many options for adequate gameplay. and those who left on this capital ship will receive a huge profit, without risk, without training. they will turn on their autominers and go for a walk with the dog, go to the store, to the sauna, cook food, watch a movie, then return to the monitor for five minutes to recharge fuel rods.

this game is billed as a "completely destructible universe". but the players are given unsolvable capitals........ and the players are really so lazy that they want to earn billions in complete safety?
thermal mechanics? The circumference of the EOS belt is 34,000 kilometers.. ... it's just the length. and now imagine its volume. it will become clear that it is impossible to look for such players. There are and will be other planets besides Eos.

your words about mercenaries have no basis. because they will come not only for money, but also for content. and it can be not only mercenaries, but also your friends. The warp trail is a point of interest, it generates content.

if you add unkillable capitals that cannot be found, it will not improve the game in any way.

 

[Solonerus]

if players go to unknown places where no one will find them,

This is an assumption with heat mechanics, it's currently unknown if/when players can be found.

this will cut off the game from many options for adequate gameplay.

This is again, opinion, a better statement would be "this would remove adequate gameplay for me". You seem to be projecting how you want to play the game on others.

and those who left on this capital ship will receive a huge profit, without risk, without training.

This is a video game, one should not require 'training' (by who, who would provide this training?) to play it. This also assumes that there would be zero risk to this process, which, given the kind of player archetypes that exist in this game. I find it very doubtful.

will turn on their autominers and go for a walk with the dog,

I know people like to point to this autominer, but it's not practical. Anyone who's tried to work on one, or even spent any time thinking about one knows this. As such I have to call a spade a spade, this just won't happen. I'm happy to be more comprehensive on why this is the case if requested.

this game is billed as a "completely destructible universe". but the players are given unsolvable capitals........ and the players are really so lazy that they want to earn billions in complete safety?

We have practically no idea what the risks of this are, as we have no idea if ships will be detectable via heat at this range. As such, you're making broad speculations based on features we don't have any hard details on.

if you add unkillable capitals that cannot be found, it will not improve the game in any way.

I actually agree that unkillable capitals are a bad idea, I just do not feel the need to construct my argument based on half-truths and speculation.

 

[Distuth]

your words about mercenaries have no basis. because they will come not only for money, but also for content. and it can be not only mercenaries, but also your friends. The warp trail is a point of interest, it generates content.

I don't know about your friends, but mine aren't real interested in spending their entire game time on the equivalent of watching paint dry, just on the off chance some dude shows up.

You are offering them the "content" that you're actively rejecting right now. Spending hours searching for a enemy that might not be there, and often having no alternative but to wait in a specific area and hope they show up.

You don't want that content. You have specifically said so, and are seeking mechanics to make it so you don't have to do that content. Why would they want it?

 

[Cavilier210]

If this was wholly a tight knit hardcore RP community, you could maybe have such people. But that ain't what this community is

 

[pavvvel]

This is an assumption with heat mechanics, it's currently unknown if/when players can be found.

Measure the size of the asteroid belt at least Eos. you will realize that heat-seeking mechanics will not be a panacea.

This is again, opinion, a better statement would be "this would remove adequate gameplay for me". You seem to be projecting how you want to play the game on others.

if you think adequate gameplay is playing without risk in an MMO with an open world, then I hardly have anything to say to you....

I don't know about your friends, but mine aren't real interested in spending their entire game time on the equivalent of watching paint dry, just on the off chance some dude shows up.

then you can just warp jump, because, in your opinion, no one will come to watch paint dry. What's the problem..?

...

You only know how to criticize and reject.
And do you know how to offer something...?

I think it is clear to anyone that the charging of the vapor jump and the warp jump itself is a tremendous amount of energy. It's a colossal trace of radiation. And you don't think anyone should be able to see it? That's odd.

Maybe you want players to risklessly mine ore worth billions of credits and make the auction system useless? I don't think any of the adequate players would want that.

Or do you want the game to have no exploration, no war for territory and resources? Unkillable capitals jumping into the unknown would provide that. It's tasteless and unpalatable.

Maybe -- you want players to live in a cycle: Laborer (SZ) --> Amphitrite (SZ) --> Capital (unknown zone) --> leaving for Star Citizen... ? I don't.

Suggest your ideas. If you can't offer, don't criticize mine.

 

[Distuth]

You only know how to criticize and reject.
And do you know how to offer something...?
Suggest your ideas. If you can't offer, don't criticize mine.

Sheesh. For someone who spends so much time arguing with people, you sure don't take criticism well.

I'll go ahead and ignore the assumptions about me. I'm pretty sure it's just hurt feelings and lashing out. Lets suggest some ideas to turn this warp tracking into something useful that isn't just "lol I deserve free kills."

First off. Errors. We've already got heat mechanics, so we don't need to be anywhere at all close by. Lets say X is the distance you can reliably heat track a base down. The error radius you get should be 2 to 4 times X. So you can dumped in a pretty big sphere once you warp. If you're prepared, you can still begin a hunt. If you don't have the resources to actually hunt someone down within this distance, you don't really have the resources to be a serious threat anyway.

Second. Guards. Having someone wait for a group to show up is just bad gameplay. Your players have better things to do with their time than stand watch. Heat tracking solves this a little, but without identifiers, it isn't quite enough. So we need something that can either give advanced warning or be an obstacle the hunters have to get through, in order to give actual guards a chance to show up.

We could make cap ships that are arriving from a tracked signature super obvious. As in a giant beacon. That puts everyone on alert, and might results in the hunters becoming the hunted if not careful. This can still be worked around pretty easily, but gives a reason to actually have guards out for actual risks, rather than just on the off chance someone shows up.

If you have other ideas to make guards work, I'd love to hear them. But I suspect I'm going to be hearing more whining about how the game is going to be ruined if we don't do things exactly as you want them.

 

[pavvvel]

What kind of hurt feelings are you talking about? Probably about yours, cause your messages do not contain arguments, constructive criticism and suggestions ..)) And look like a hidden cry of "I beg you, let me play so that no one kills me in the game"))

You write about waiting for the players, whether they will arrive. When there are sieges, you will have to do it at your bases anyway..))).. Oh, yes, you want an mmo where no one will bother you... It's strange to hear words about resentment from you after that. Don't clog up the thread. And if you think I'm wasting my time arguing, then you just don't understand where you are. What I'm writing here (except this post) is all for developers and for players who are ready for an adequate dialogue

 

[BlackAndWhiteBird]

Imho, the very idea of capital ships as teleporting stations is a bad idea. The fact that some of them are also invulnerable to everything else is absolutely shit. Honestly, it would be better to give players the opportunity to build nodal warp stations instead of these unsightly stumps.

Are you worried here that the economy will collapse? Not worth.

The economy is already dead. She is killed by huge safe zones with endless resources. Inept, poorly designed creation of objects without any specialization and effort. A magical SSC capable of collecting almost any item, regardless of whether you know how to make it or not. Dev stores that buy everything at fixed prices (and even magic refueling pumps that do not depend on the price of ice on the market).

Whether capital ships are invulnerable or inaccessible or not, there is absolutely no difference for the auction and the economy. As soon as the number of active players increases again, at least to several thousand, a new collapse will occur. The market will quickly become oversupplied with ore, and prices will again hang at the boundary set by the developers, however, sometimes falling even lower and allowing you to earn a couple of hundred credits without lifting a finger.

 

[pavvvel]

Continuing to think about the idea and consulting with our comrades, we came to the following addition: the warp trail gradually weakens after the jump and the weaker it is, the higher the error. For example, even 2.5% of the error of a jump with a range of 40,000 km is 1000 km of a miss. This will allow players to guard their warp trail for not so long, if they understand that the error has become sufficient for stealth, then they can complete the guard. And those who want to scan the warp trail will have to hurry. This can create content and increase the risks for those who think that no one will find it.

And yes, I agree that unsolvable capitals are a very very bad idea

 

[Solonerus]

Measure the size of the asteroid belt at least Eos. you will realize that heat-seeking mechanics will not be a panacea.

_

We have practically no idea what the risks of this are, as we have no idea if ships will be detectable via heat at this range. As such, you're making broad speculations based on features we don't have any hard details on.

_

if you think adequate gameplay is playing without risk in an MMO with an open world, then I hardly have anything to say to you....

I must say, I don't see the need for straw men in this field. I did not suggest that adequate gameplay did not include risk, I suggested you, in particular, are projecting- what you enjoy- as the nominative, and correct, way to play.

leaving for Star Citizen...

As a player who has functionally left for other games, Star Citizen as one, adding warp traces is not going to bring me back. Nor is this nebulous concept of 'risk' that your overall argument seems to be based on.

The economy is already dead. She is killed by huge safe zones with endless resources

The economy is dead due to a lack of players. I implore you to check the market data provided by sadtech.io, if you have players with limited time, you will have an economy. We had one, now we don't.

A magical SSC capable of collecting almost any item, regardless of whether you know how to make it or not.

If one were to 'craft' normally with the SSC, one would expend a vast amount more credits and resources. I don't give credit to the devs for much- but I will here- they did design the SSC to punish players who did this.

Dev stores that buy everything at fixed prices (and even magic refueling pumps that do not depend on the price of ice on the market).

There is literally, zero, market-based MMO that does not do this. It's a fundamental aspect of these games. Otherwise, you'd create a situation where players would be stone-aged with literally no ways to get out.

The market will quickly become oversupplied with ore, and prices will again hang at the boundary set by the developers, however, sometimes falling even lower and allowing you to earn a couple of hundred credits without lifting a finger.

I struggle to engage with this, but economies just do not work this way. If the market becomes oversupplied, costs will fall and production will shift. There are excellent studies on video-game markets operating just like real markets, which is how I can apply market-analysis tools to the games market.

 

[BlackAndWhiteBird]

_
.

Apparently, you are not familiar with MMO games. Seriously, some of them are built on the principle of a sandbox, not an amusement park. There are many MMOs in which there are no vendors buying anything from players. There are many MMOs where every item in the world, including loot from mobs, was created by players. There are many MMOs where trade and the economy are under the full control of the players, and the cost depends solely on supply/demand, and this demand, even for the lowest-level resources, is always there.

Now the starbase resource market is broken by the lack of players, which results in both a lack of demand and a lack of supply. Five months ago, the resource market was broken by a monstrous, incredible oversupply against demand. And if you touch the market of items, it has always been broken. Just because no one needs anything. All purchases there are made sporadically, in cases when you are too lazy or have no time to do it yourself.

And the situation on the market of finished products could be much less sad if, in order to create ssc drawings, you would need, not at will, you NEEDED to have a ready-made part in the station's storage. The player would go to the market and buy parts that would then become part of his ship, or for the SSC itself to buy spare parts from the market. No matter how it could be implemented, but such an approach would create demand, demand would create supply, and the spare parts market would cease to crumble in endless agony.
But we have a magic "do everything" button

Now it's broken regardless of the situation and regardless of the number of players. It's broken simply because it's created broken. And the introduction of immortal trash will make it even more broken.

 

[Xylch]

And the situation on the market of finished products could be much less sad if, in order to create ssc drawings, you would need, not at will, you NEEDED to have a ready-made part in the station's storage. The player would go to the market and buy parts that would then become part of his ship, or for the SSC itself to buy spare parts from the market. No matter how it could be implemented, but such an approach would create demand, demand would create supply, and the spare parts market would cease to crumble in endless agony.
But we have a magic "do everything" button

I very strongly disagree with this. The purpose of the SSC is to design ships. If a player needs to have the parts first, that means they must design the ship before they use it. This would eliminate what I consider one of the best and most innovative features of Starbase.

 

[Recatek]

There are many MMOs in which there are no vendors buying anything from players. There are many MMOs where every item in the world, including loot from mobs, was created by players. There are many MMOs where trade and the economy are under the full control of the players, and the cost depends solely on supply/demand, and this demand, even for the lowest-level resources, is always there.

"Many"? I can hardly think of one, maybe. Can you name 3 games that fit these criteria? Are they even remotely successful?

 

[Askannon]

"Many"? I can hardly think of one, maybe. Can you name 3 games that fit these criteria? Are they even remotely successful?

Haven't played them myself, but didn't EVE and Albion promote themself with having a fully player driven economy, same with Foxhole?

 

[Recatek]

but didn't EVE and Albion promote themself with having a fully player driven economy

Only to an extent. Both Albion and EVE have NPC buy orders, which are the equivalent of selling to NPCs. Both games definitely have loot that drops from mobs that doesn't come from players (this is pretty necessary for introducing certain rare items to the game). The only other game in this area that I can think of is Wurm, but that still also has vendors and mob loot, and its player numbers aren't much better than Starbase's. Worlds Adrift, I guess, but that game is long dead and never even made it out of Early Access (and even it had mob loot). I'm trying to think of other games lauded for sandboxy mechanics. SWG? No, it has mob loot and vendors. Crowfall? Mob loot and vendors. I'm very curious to hear what games I'm missing, if there's so many of them without either of those elements.

I think the idea of "player driven economy" is pretty misunderstood in MMOs in general, and also simply isn't possible in its purest form due to the fact that games are voluntary and open systems. You always have old players retiring (taking their stuff out of the game forever) and new players joining (and who will leave if they don't get stuff to start out with). This means you always need game-driven faucets and sinks, and these always need to be tweaked and tuned by the developers to control the economy and keep it from going off the rails. Even games that boast their player-driven economy, like EVE, have these problems and use very not-player-driven solutions to keep them under control. Starbase would be no exception, if it had players in the first place. That isn't even a bad thing -- a game can support the fantasy of a player-driven economy without having to dogmatically commit to its purest form of mechanics.

EDIT: Forgot about Foxhole. Foxhole is a game where you basically have no personal belongings, so it's hard to compare that to other MMO economies. There's no trade, no currency, and no truly personal storage. Foxhole has less of an economy and more just a flow of supplies and products from the back lines to the front line.

 

[Distuth]

Only to an extent. Both Albion and EVE have NPC buy orders, which are the equivalent of selling to NPCs. Both games definitely have loot that drops from mobs that doesn't come from players (this is pretty necessary for introducing certain rare items to the game). The only other game in this area that I can think of is Wurm, but that still also has vendors and mob loot, and its player numbers aren't much better than Starbase's. Worlds Adrift, I guess, but that game is long dead and never even made it out of Early Access (and even it had mob loot). I'm trying to think of other games lauded for sandboxy mechanics. SWG? No, it has mob loot and vendors. Crowfall? Mob loot and vendors. I'm very curious to hear what games I'm missing, if there's so many of them without either of those elements.

I think the idea of "player driven economy" is pretty misunderstood in MMOs in general, and also simply isn't possible in its purest form due to the fact that games are voluntary and open systems. You always have old players retiring (taking their stuff out of the game forever) and new players joining (and who will leave if they don't get stuff to start out with). This means you always need game-driven faucets and sinks, and these always need to be tweaked and tuned by the developers to control the economy and keep it from going off the rails. Even games that boast their player-driven economy, like EVE, have these problems and use very not-player-driven solutions to keep them under control. Starbase would be no exception, if it had players in the first place. That isn't even a bad thing -- a game can support the fantasy of a player-driven economy without having to dogmatically commit to its purest form of mechanics.

EDIT: Forgot about Foxhole. Foxhole is a game where you basically have no personal belongings, so it's hard to compare that to other MMO economies. There's no trade, no currency, and no truly personal storage. Foxhole has less of an economy and more just a flow of supplies and products from the back lines to the front line.

Minor Correction here about Albion. Albion DOES have NPC buy orders, but they don't work the way you're thinking they do. They have something called a black market, which NPCs buy the items they drop as loot with. These items are made by players, and recycle through the system this way. So while it IS a NPC buy order, this buy order doesn't flush items out of the economy in the way the type you're talking about does. Instead, it acts as a way to give crafting a purpose at every tier, instead of just at the highest ones.

 

[Recatek]

Minor Correction here about Albion. Albion DOES have NPC buy orders, but they don't work the way you're thinking they do. They have something called a black market, which NPCs buy the items they drop as loot with. These items are made by players, and recycle through the system this way. So while it IS a NPC buy order, this buy order doesn't flush items out of the economy in the way the type you're talking about does. Instead, it acts as a way to give crafting a purpose at every tier, instead of just at the highest ones.

Yeah, the black market is what I was referring to, and it's a perfect example of how you pretty much always need at least some game-driven systems to keep an MMO economy functioning. Even if, sure, the game doesn't just consume and delete the items the black market buys, players have no real involvement in what happens to them. The game is in full control over when those buy orders go up, for how much, and what mobs get the items once bought. The only difference between the black market and EVE's buy orders is that in Albion, the items incidentally appear later on some NPC loot tables. It's a cool theoretical distinction, but if you don't know that it's happening then it doesn't make much mechanical difference when you sell or loot something. Albion already has loot items (crafting components, furniture/decorations, etc.) that drop off of mobs that aren't player-made, and mobs in that game are a primary source of currency as well. None of these things are purely player-driven, and that isn't a bad thing. That's just how MMO economies work.

It's always preferable to have a better and more functional game than to adhere to some dogma about being a perfectly pure player-driven economy or whatever -- "player-driven" isn't definitionally equivalent to "more fun". The ultimate game-driven extreme isn't great either, but I don't think Starbase is at any risk of leaning too far in that direction. The most important thing is to create a mix of systems that enable meaningful player agency and choice without getting stuck in degenerate failure states. Successful sandbox games always find a balance between player-driven and game-driven mechanics to accomplish that. Albion and EVE are no exception, and Starbase shouldn't be either.

 

[pavvvel]

This thread was created to discuss the possibility of tracking the warp trail of capital ships. This is necessary so that the owner of the capital ship is not in a state of zero risk and extremely high reward.

I ask you to move your conversations not on the topic of the thread to another place