Warp trace

pavvvel

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222
#21
You're aware that civ caps generate a safe zone, right? If you're stalking a civ cap, you're stalking someone in a safe zone, because it's a moving safe zone.

Are we just going to get these "please let me PvP everyone everywhere all the time whenever I want" never-ending argument threads every couple of days now? And let me guess, everyone who doesn't like it is a carebear and should just leave the game if they don't like that? The game isn't just made for you and your desire to PvP without restrictions, pavvvel. There are plenty of opportunities to PvP already, and there should be some new fun ones certainly, but if people don't want to PvP then Starbase is explicitly intended to also support that type of gameplay without being harassed. Some people just don't want to PvP, and there is and should continue to be room for them in the game to get a complete experience whether "hardcore" (is it really hardcore if you're asking for help from the devs?) PvPers like it or not.
I could hardly read your next useless text about the promotion of casual gameplay. casual gameplay has a place only in the safe zone, remember this.

carebears should not leave the game. if they want to play safely, there is a safe zone. they can mine charodium.
If carebear is playing outside the safe zone, then it should be possible to find him, whether he likes it or not.
when carebear leaves the safe zone, no one should care what he wants and everything that happens to him is his problem.
if carebear deleted the game because he was killed, this is a toxic inadequate player. adequate players understand that they can be killed in MMO, they understand that any method of killing is adequate if outside the safe zone.

but it is important to understand that the ability to track the warp trail is needed not only to search for care bears. this is necessary for military purposes, for PVP, for content. suddenly, the enemy company begins to strengthen its position? what if this company is planning an expansion??? we need ways to counteract. in addition, today this player is a miner, and tomorrow he will come to break your bases and kill your friends. I want to be able to get the gameplay of the war for resources and for territory, I want the gameplay of a scout, so I need to search for a warp trail. very much needed.

there is no need to think that with the mechanics of searching for a warp trace that I propose, it will be easy to find someone. suppose I installed sensors and spent an hour or two trying to find and scan the warp trace of a player who made the jump yesterday. next, I need to fly to my capital and start charging the jump according to the received coordinates. this one can take a very long time. As a result, this cat-and-mouse game can become very interesting. . it is much more interesting than without the mechanics of scanning the warp trace, when the player makes a civilian capital, jumps to where he cannot be found, then he will mine on a cheap ship and not look around, do not take friends with him for protection, but only drink five liters of beer every evening, lazily looking like his auto-miner mines ore by minimizing the game window to watch a TV series or even play another game........
 

Recatek

Meat Popsicle
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
286
#22
Looking forward to replying to this thread every day until it gets locked too, I guess.

I could hardly read your next useless text
It is truly a mystery why you tend to get hostile responses on these forums.

casual gameplay has a place only in the safe zone, remember this.
Do not confuse your dreams with the desires of developers. It isn't "the" safe zone, it's "any" safe zone, and these developers are adding moving, teleporting safe zones to the game specifically to expand the scope of non-PvP gameplay. It's a very clearly stated goal to provide a rich experience to non-PvP players as well as PvP-oriented players. This isn't intended to be the sort of game where if you don't want to PvP you're just stuck in some crummy starting area forever -- non-PvP players will be able to explore as well.

when carebear leaves the safe zone, no one should care what he wants and everything that happens to him is his problem.
Once again, civilian capital ships create a safe zone around them. Nobody is leaving a safe zone.

but it is important to understand that the ability to track the warp trail is needed not only to search for care bears. this is necessary for military purposes, for PVP, for content
Honestly, given this post and your past posts here, it mostly sounds like you're looking for license to play like a coward and primarily fight people who don't want to, and aren't prepared to, actually pose a challenge against you. If you were up to any sort of challenge, you probably wouldn't be lobbying the devs to make PvP easier for yourself all the time. Practically none of the other "hardcore" PvPers are. I'm wondering who the carebear really is here.

As a result, this cat-and-mouse game can become very interesting.
Maybe for you, the player looking for the easiest kills possible, which is very obviously the only player in the game you've given any consideration to.

jumps to where he cannot be found, then he will mine on a cheap ship and not look around, do not take friends with him for protection, but only drink five liters of beer every evening, lazily looking like his auto-miner mines ore by minimizing the game window to watch a TV series or even play another game
If they enjoy doing that, then that's fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play that way. Other people are allowed to have fun in the game in their own way and don't need your approval to do so. The world actually doesn't revolve around your need for cheap and easy wins.
 
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pavvvel

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#23
I see you've stopped littering the thread again. I only get bad answers from a few people who promote their casual ideas.

Calling victories cheap, you forget about who is to blame for this. If a player did not make a good ship, did not call friends, did not hire defenders, then his defeat can be called cheap. I emphasize that only defeat can be cheap. And victory means that the player prepared the ship, studied the mechanics and was stronger. The killed miner should tell the ganker: GG
 

Recatek

Meat Popsicle
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
286
#24
I see you've stopped littering the thread again.
More of that trademark pavvel charm, I see. No wonder you're so worried about people running away from you.

I only get bad answers from a few people who promote their casual ideas.
Casual ideas like, say, begging FB to make it easier to creep on players who don't want to fight you? Seems quite casual to me.

Calling victories cheap, you forget about who is to blame for this.
No I remember quite well. It's you, the person constantly advocating for greater access to the easiest targets you can imagine.

If a player did not make a good ship, did not call friends, did not hire defenders, then his defeat can be called cheap. I emphasize that only defeat can be cheap. And victory means that the player prepared the ship, studied the mechanics and was stronger. The killed miner should tell the ganker: GG
In other words, "I can play like a coward and only seek the most ill-prepared enemies to fight instead of anything posing a threat to me, and make myself feel good about it by pretending it was their fault for not playing the game the same way I do."
 
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pavvvel

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Messages
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#25
I'll say it again: as soon as a player crossed the safe zone border, no one should have cared about what he wants or does not want.
And I have already explained quite adequately that we are talking about tracking any players, not just miners.
I also explained that today he is a miner, and tomorrow he blows up your base or goes to kill someone. In addition, the fact that the target turned out to be easy is 100% the fault of the target itself.

Anyone with a head understands that the capital ship will become a very important tool in the war of factions. Therefore, I will repeat again that tracking the warp trail is very necessary for a full-fledged gameplay.

I ask you not to tell me any more about what you think the players want. I don't think you have the right to speak for others. You want casual, but this game is not about casual.
 

Recatek

Meat Popsicle
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Messages
286
#26
In addition, the fact that the target turned out to be easy is 100% the fault of the target itself.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel good about only fighting the easiest targets in the game.

Anyone with a head understands that the capital ship will become a very important tool in the war of factions.
You're so quick to blame non-PvP players for not playing the game your way. If you're so worried about this, where are your escorts? Your scouts? Your patrols? Where are your spies and intel? Why didn't you know about the jump before it even happened? Cap jumps require a location chip, so why did you let them get that chip in the first place, didn't your patrol catch them in the process? Really I think you only have yourself to blame for not being able to track threats near your space.

I ask you not to tell me any more about what you think the players want.
Request denied.

I don't think you have the right to speak for others.
I'm not the only one here saying these things. Hell, I'm not even alone in this thread saying these things. You're the one posting multiple threads and comment chains about how to make PvP easier and lazier for yourself.

You want casual, but this game is not about casual.
Once again, for the audience in the back, it is the developers' stated intent that non-PvP playstyles (what you call casual, but only to stroke your own ego) are welcome, viable, and supported in Starbase, and extend beyond the starting safe zone to explore the game space in a PvE context. Lauri says so nearly verbatim in the thread Askannon linked. So yes, the game is absolutely about non-PvP play for the people who want it, and anyone who objects to that can pound sand.
 
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Joined
Jan 21, 2022
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#28
You're aware that civ caps generate a safe zone, right? If you're stalking a civ cap, you're stalking someone in a safe zone, because it's a moving safe zone.

Are we just going to get these "please let me PvP everyone everywhere all the time whenever I want" never-ending argument threads every couple of days now? And let me guess, everyone who doesn't like it is a carebear and should just leave the game if they don't like that? The game isn't just made for you and your desire to PvP without restrictions, pavvvel. There are plenty of opportunities to PvP already, and there should be some new fun ones certainly, but if people don't want to PvP then Starbase is explicitly intended to also support that type of gameplay without being harassed. Some people just don't want to PvP, and there is and should continue to be room for them in the game to get a complete experience whether "hardcore" (is it really hardcore if you're asking for help from the devs?) PvPers like it or not.
ive got to the point where i just filter out parvel
 

pavvvel

Veteran endo
Joined
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Messages
222
#29
if a casual player is restless and has to clog up the thread, then I'm doing everything right.
statements that this is a no-pvp game make me laugh a lot
 
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#30
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel good about only fighting the easiest targets in the game.


You're so quick to blame non-PvP players for not playing the game your way. If you're so worried about this, where are your escorts? Your scouts? Your patrols? Where are your spies and intel? Why didn't you know about the jump before it even happened? Cap jumps require a location chip, so why did you let them get that chip in the first place, didn't your patrol catch them in the process? Really I think you only have yourself to blame for not being able to track threats near your space.


Request denied.


I'm not the only one here saying these things. Hell, I'm not even alone in this thread saying these things. You're the one posting multiple threads and comment chains about how to make PvP easier and lazier for yourself.

Once again, for the audience in the back, it is the developers' stated intent that non-PvP playstyles (what you call casual, but only to stroke your own ego) are welcome, viable, and supported in Starbase, and extend beyond the starting safe zone to explore the game space in a PvE context. Lauri says so nearly verbatim in the thread Askannon linked. So yes, the game is absolutely about non-PvP play for the people who want it, and anyone who objects to that can pound sand.
do I understand correctly that you want to make this game with a bias in pve? safe resource extraction will make the game more boring for a huge number of people. you want to break the unshakable truths - you want rare resources, be prepared that it is much more dangerous. and if we take your plan, then all the excitement in the game will disappear. and this will lead to her death
 

Askannon

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Joined
Feb 13, 2020
Messages
128
#31
therefore, I ask you again the question: where is the connection between hunting players (including) unarmed and grifing??
I know that reading disagreeing posts isn't fun, but here:
So it indeed does not have anything to do with your beloved PvP and more with keeping things civil and pleasent inside safezones.
with the slight adage that nobody here called PvP griefing and only mentioned griefing protection when talking about safezones being an old concept.

So no need to be hyperfocussed about something that was written as an off-comment and even in parentheses.



killing players outside the safe zone is normal, it's right and adequate and it's the best content, because it's MMO and everything here should depend on PVP.
Which is an opinion you're entitled to have, but shouldn't force on others.

And since we are talking about opinions, here's mine:
a MMO should find and implement ways for players to interact (and better if they themselves want to interact), be it competitive/adversarial, neutral or cooperative, because a MMO depends on player interactions.
 

Askannon

Veteran endo
Joined
Feb 13, 2020
Messages
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#32
do I understand correctly that you want to make this game with a bias in pve? safe resource extraction will make the game more boring for a huge number of people. you want to break the unshakable truths - you want rare resources, be prepared that it is much more dangerous. and if we take your plan, then all the excitement in the game will disappear. and this will lead to her death
Let's see... talking about what the developers have said and demonstrated makes it the plan of a player now, got it.

And for safe resource extraction, wouldn't week twelve's (2022) progress report already do that with much less hassle than a civilian capital ship (which you'd need a station with a dock for for it to go into the belt)?
Station cluster is a group of stations that form a special, large Safe Zone that can span several kilometers. Via clusters, it's possible to control bigger areas and for example set Safe Zone rules and taxes to mining and trading.
I'm sure piracy (or whatever it is you coin excitement) will have a place in the future, especially when heat sensors allow you to find active targets.
And if not that then station sieges and whatever will be developed in the future.
 
Joined
Apr 8, 2022
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#33
Let's see... talking about what the developers have said and demonstrated makes it the plan of a player now, got it.

And for safe resource extraction, wouldn't week twelve's (2022) progress report already do that with much less hassle than a civilian capital ship (which you'd need a station with a dock for for it to go into the belt)?


I'm sure piracy (or whatever it is you coin excitement) will have a place in the future, especially when heat sensors allow you to find active targets.
And if not that then station sieges and whatever will be developed in the future.
I have an understanding that you are very much mistaken. I only want one thing, that the ships that jump into the area of rare ores, must be seen by pirates, otherwise rare ores will become common / ps sorry for my english. I hope I've made myself clear
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
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#34
It would be fair that such large ships as capitals leave a trail after moving. But alas, I cannot agree with the topic starter. The option he proposed would be too easy a way to steal other people's spatial points.

Imagine: someone flew far, far away for weeks, and then returned back to deliver the coordinates to his capital ship and make a jump. And the other player just found the trace of the jump and followed him, literally without making a hundredth part of those efforts.

No, I think this option is quite unfair to the first player. This is not to mention the fact that such mechanics will greatly harm large corporations and communities of players, I am sure, who want to keep the coordinates of their jumps secret for as long as possible.

In my opinion, the trace from the jump should be permeable for one or more small ships for some time. Thus, wherever the capital ship goes, there will always be a chance that several pirates slipped through after it. But at the same time, the exit point will not be completely discredited.

Even if a cartographer ship follows the capital ship, it will still need to return home on its own, not to mention that they will probably try to destroy it as soon as they notice it. It would be a fun cat-and-mouse game. xD
 

pavvvel

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Messages
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#35
It would be fair that such large ships as capitals leave a trail after moving. But alas, I cannot agree with the topic starter. The option he proposed would be too easy a way to steal other people's spatial points.

Imagine: someone flew far, far away for weeks, and then returned back to deliver the coordinates to his capital ship and make a jump. And the other player just found the trace of the jump and followed him, literally without making a hundredth part of those efforts.

No, I think this option is quite unfair to the first player. This is not to mention the fact that such mechanics will greatly harm large corporations and communities of players, I am sure, who want to keep the coordinates of their jumps secret for as long as possible.

In my opinion, the trace from the jump should be permeable for one or more small ships for some time. Thus, wherever the capital ship goes, there will always be a chance that several pirates slipped through after it. But at the same time, the exit point will not be completely discredited.

Even if a cartographer ship follows the capital ship, it will still need to return home on its own, not to mention that they will probably try to destroy it as soon as they notice it. It would be a fun cat-and-mouse game. xD
These are my thoughts:
1) Capital leaves a warp trail after the jump. This is a huge release of radiation that dissipates over a period of time. This trace can be seen from a great distance with sensors (add in the new heat mechanics). It seems logical.... and i saw it in the movies :)
2) After seeing the warp trail with sensors, the player looks for its location. Once there, the player must use expensive equipment to scan the warp trail and this must take some time.
3) As a result of scanning the player gets jump coordinates. Then the player has to fly to his capital to make the jump, then agonizingly wait for it to charge...

As a result, a huge amount of time can pass from the moment the first capital jumps, to the moment the second capital jumps. This means that no one will be stepping on anyone's toes and breathing down their backs.
There won't be any, absolutely no problems for big companies - they will be able to organize an ambush at the point of warp trail both at the entrance and at the exit.This means a new version of content. It is these points of interest will be created by the players themselves! That sounds great!

If a company hasn't taken care of protecting their capital jump coordinates, it's not like it's going to be a problem. Because, again, it will take a very long time.

I've read your version too. I think it's better to approach this issue in the context of content for a large number of players. And this is hardly possible if the chasing players will not have their own capital to jump, but will jump only on ordinary ships. It may turn out that they will just get stuck at the other end, without events, without content.

We need to continue the discussion. I think the main goal is to develop the maximum possible variability of content. And so that in this completely destructible universe there is no "easy mod" when a player makes capital, jumps to where no one will find him and returns with ore in a week. This will devalue not only the market and the auction, but also the whole game. In this game there should be a struggle for territory, exploration, resource extraction and war.
 

J.D.

Veteran endo
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
209
#36
Civilian capitals are specifically designed for non-PvP gameplay and can't be damaged or destroyed, so being able to stalk or camp them after they warp away from you doesn't make any sense. Military capitals are mainly for sieges, which have a long wind-up time and advance notice for the destination, so you'll be able to tell where it's going most of the time before a siege.
it doesnt have to make sense, to you. The game doesnt revolve around you, and your ideals, and those like you. Here is a fact. The civilian captial ships are ONLY safe from the walls, inward. As soon as you leave that ship, you can be killed granted your cap ship is outside the safe zone to begin with. This danger includes any miner ship, fighter, whatever you leave the safety of those walls with. Pip said this in a dev video when they were first introducing capital ships. So, yea people could chill around your ship, and blow you up when you leave. There doesnt have to be a reason. In fact, people who are loud about trying to silence pvp end up making themselves into huge targets in game. just saying.
 

Distuth

Active endo
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Sep 8, 2021
Messages
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#37
Oh sweet baby Jesus, I can practically taste the salt in here, and I don't think Endos even have tastebuds.

Look. Tracking capital ships and getting jump coordinates is a dumb idea. Not because of muh PVP, or muh Safezone. I could see it being used in a purely directional sense. Follow the big ****ing trail. Sure. Whatever. Reward the dedication that slowboating along a trail for who knows how long with eventually finding something. But getting EXACT coordinates of where you're going? That's insanity. Why should I bother taking the effort to hide a base when any chump with a HAM radio can twiddle their thumbs for 20 minutes and get the coordinates to the area I spent 2 weeks just getting out to?

Would it be more convenient if I just showed up with expensive tribute every week for you to partake of? Shall I feed you grapes and fan you while you peruse my wares?

I like pvp like anyone else. Shooting guns at ships is fun. What isn't fun is trivializing time investment. If I spend 2 weeks setting up a secret cache, you SHOULD have ways to find me. But it should take you time as well. Time spent, perhaps in a slow boating nav chip reader, which if you've spent any time on PTU, finds EVERY station in a 200KM RADIUS every time it scans.

Your hunting is easy enough.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
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#38
pavvvel
"very expensive equipment" is a very extensible concept. For someone it is expensive to lose marmot, and someone abandons ships and stations, simply because he feels sorry to waste time on transportation. What can we say about corporations for which money or resources are just dust. Pavel, this is of course only my view of things, but in games of this kind there are only 2 valuable things - this is time and information. These things have absolute value

I believe that navigation blocks with exit points should be obtained in battle (in ordinary sieges and all that, or thanks to a spy game and social engineering) and certainly not stolen randomly with the help of equipment that will not actually cost anything for large communities or experienced players.

On the other hand, even if the pirate fighter that jumped after the capital does not meet resistance, it will still take out enough information from this jump to determine the approximate location (area) of the space. Believe me, even one glance in the direction of the gas giant will allow you to determine the location of the exit point with great accuracy. And this information can cost hundreds of times more than any material object.
 

pavvvel

Veteran endo
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
222
#39
Oh sweet baby Jesus, I can practically taste the salt in here, and I don't think Endos even have tastebuds.

Look. Tracking capital ships and getting jump coordinates is a dumb idea. Not because of muh PVP, or muh Safezone. I could see it being used in a purely directional sense. Follow the big ****ing trail. Sure. Whatever. Reward the dedication that slowboating along a trail for who knows how long with eventually finding something. But getting EXACT coordinates of where you're going? That's insanity. Why should I bother taking the effort to hide a base when any chump with a HAM radio can twiddle their thumbs for 20 minutes and get the coordinates to the area I spent 2 weeks just getting out to?

Would it be more convenient if I just showed up with expensive tribute every week for you to partake of? Shall I feed you grapes and fan you while you peruse my wares?

I like pvp like anyone else. Shooting guns at ships is fun. What isn't fun is trivializing time investment. If I spend 2 weeks setting up a secret cache, you SHOULD have ways to find me. But it should take you time as well. Time spent, perhaps in a slow boating nav chip reader, which if you've spent any time on PTU, finds EVERY station in a 200KM RADIUS every time it scans.

Your hunting is easy enough.
What's stopping you from setting up an ambush at the warp trail?
What prevents you from hiring guards for money?

I only agree about the "accurate" cooridates. I think it's fair if the coordinates are obtained with an error, and the closer the moment the warp trail disappeared, the higher the error.

Or do you want players to go to an unknown place where no one will find them...to mine there on cheap ships without the risk of being found? and then they bring 50,000 stacks of expensive ore to the origins, turning the work of ordinary miners into dust?? and turning the entire economy into dust?


I agree that we need to find an option that will satisfy many people. that's why I created this thread as a "discussion" thread.
Anyone who has 100 million to build capital and brings in 100 billion worth of ore from mining on capital can pay money to mercenaries who will guard the warp trail. this will give interesting gameplay.

As I said above, without the ability to track warp trace, we will get a dead economy and will be deprived of gameplay.
Companies will commit to the unknown, and from there bring in 1000000 tons of expensive ore with absolutely no risk.
this means that all mining with the risks that were before the capitals will be devalued. hundreds of hours of mining will become dust. we need to come up with something to prevent this from happening.

,,,,,,,,,
if there is no way to trace the capital jump, if there is no risk to its owner, then the game cycle will look like this
1) Laborer
2) Amphitrite
3) Capital
4) Month of mining
5) Billionaire
6) Deleting the game.
 
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Mar 15, 2022
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1
#40
If there is no way to trace the capital ship. We're going to have some big problems.

1. A dead economy. Once capital ships are added, ore prices will go up, then when capital ships are built, ore prices will start to drop precipitously. The reason for this will be the lack of risk and complete safety in the vicinity of capital ships. If before you had to take risks to deliver valuable ore, after the introduction of capital ships there will be no risks.

2. Impossibility to destroy a capital ship outside of a siege. Because companies will most likely store their capital ships at the edge of the universe, and where, you can't find out.

3) Dead PVP. PvP outside of sieges will be completely dead, and what are the chances of PvP players to stay after that?

4.Lack of risk. All players will live in their own world where no one can touch them. And only sometimes it will be necessary to refill the origins. No threat and therefore no price of ore.

5.Beginners. When newcomers come to the game and they will see the lack of PvP and a dead market, and this is just what you can see now. Do you think they will stay in the game?

Result: The game will dead.
 
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