Possible Griefing Mechanic

Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
8
#1
Howdy! I can't wait for this game, so I figured I might start some discussions on these forums.

So from what I've read, there will be safe zones where things can't take damage. The idea makes sense, because griefers would decimate any station that ever went up without safe zones. But safe zones themselves open up another form of griefing. What's to stop people from building "box" ships with a hole in the bottom and just landing over the top of your ship? Then your ship is trapped, and since you can't blow up the other guy's ship, you'll never get your ship back. You might even be in the ship, forcing you to suicide to get out. Similarly, the footage we see shows "highways" going through the stations. What's to stop people from just parking a bunch of junk and clogging up all the lanes? I guess the obvious answer is just to make ships phase through each other inside safe zones, but that might be undesired.
 

Burnside

Master endo
Joined
Aug 23, 2019
Messages
308
#2
Station owners have certain management tools to deal with problems like ship-littering. Trapping a ship isn't likely to be easy since landing pads move ships into a storage space, likely part of the station inventory, and landing pads have some form of instancing tech to allow many people to use the same pad at a time. It's likely that you have to be really careless or unaware to have your ship box-trapped, and even then the station owner or one of their employees with station management permissions can resolve the issue. Failing that, you might be able to use your ship insurance in the worst case.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
8
#3
What about away from the station yet still inside the safe zone? If someone could make a ship go faster than most miners, he could just scoop up anyone he wished! I think that's a legit tactic outside of a safe zone, but what's the counterplay inside?
 

CalenLoki

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
741
#4
Gather proof (pictures, video), send to mods, get the guy banned. He can't push your ship, so will just waste a bit of both his and your time.

TBH I don't see any good automatic system that coul fix that.
Only way that could work would be allowing ships to phase through each other and become invisible while doing so. But that would be very immersion breaking.
Or allow short range (i.e. 200m) teleport within safe zone, with long enough cool down to prevent using it for normal propulsion.
 

Burnside

Master endo
Joined
Aug 23, 2019
Messages
308
#5
What about away from the station yet still inside the safe zone? If someone could make a ship go faster than most miners, he could just scoop up anyone he wished! I think that's a legit tactic outside of a safe zone, but what's the counterplay inside?
AFAIK station safezones are still well within the render range of the station's most central point. My best guess is that it shouldn't be more than a kilometer out, but maybe as far as 2km or more from the station's furthest point from center. Also, anybody scooping up your ship needs to take it out of the safezone to exploit it and then they've got an instant klang-machine inside of their hull and likely a very angry endo with a weapon ready pointing it at the cockpit. It seems like a very bad idea from the griefer's position.
 

Vexus

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
280
#6
Mods cannot effectively deal with the large volume of an MMO playerbase and the 'griefing' that M1 Abrams is talking about. To suggest that this should be the solution is to ignore the underlying issue; the game design of safe zones. The solution is not about removing safe zones either, but looking at it from that root cause. The safe zone is basically a logical layer preventing players from interacting with each other in certain ways. It is from this poor game design mechanic that all other problems arise, requiring developers to spend countless hours working over which interactions to disallow and allow in the 'safe zone', rushing down the rabbit hole and eventually finding no solution.

Starbase I contend is too complex to think there is a solution in the direct sense. It needs safe zones, to be an MMO, but it needs to deal with these problems which the presence of safe zones uniquely create. It is an unsolvable problem. Unlike Rust, which has NPC/AI controlled 'safe zones' where if you attack another player, you are shot at by turrets and NPC guards, Starbase is complex with players and ships being a factor where tracking "who attacked who" or "who rammed into who" is not really something you can define. In Rust, it's simple - fire your weapon and you're a target for the guards. But again, there is no ship, just your player entity in Rust; and Starbase has no NPC/AI guards.

I'm not saying I have the answer, but this is just how I see it; there's no real answer that doesn't require a trip down the rabbit hole where players create new problems, developers create new solutions, and then players create new problems - repeat constantly.

One possible 'solution' which I will not flesh out in detail (because again, we'll just back-and-forth all the problems/solutions of it): a stationary ship with no player on the controls is easy to 'push', and stationary ships with players on the helm gain an artificial layer of 'weight'. In other words, the longer you are stationary - to a low limit - the more artificial weight your ship has. Then, if someone is going to block or 'cap' your ship against a station, you just move, and since your artificial 'mass' is more than their ship, you push them away with ease, as they were not stationary. The limit or 'cap' of this extra weight should, if your ship is stationary for a while and you are in the ship/online/the ship is active, prevent some random ship from running into your ship and pushing you around. However, if someone stops next to you, waits the 1-2 minutes for their ship to reach this artificial 'cap' of virtual mass, they can then push your ship per normal, moving you out of the way. This puts a time component on the solution, meaning if someone wanted to grief people, they have to come up, sit around for a couple minutes, and then push them around - but as they move, their ship lowers in artificial weight, and thus they cannot continuously push people around. Just enough to get by.

This exact same system could apply to player-robots as well, making it possible to have player collision in the game (not sure if it does), but still allows someone who is standing still for a while the ability to move past people.

And of course, this then leads to all the rabbit hole stuff of "what if there's 10 ships stacked around you, how does that work?" and so on. But that's not the point. The point is disincentivizing the act of doing these things - through good gameplay elsewhere, through mechanics which require time and hassle from the 'griefer' where it becomes less valued an action to take, or through economic incentives like allowing any ship with no bound-player to that ship to be salvaged by anyone (eliminating junk piles on the 'road' so to speak).
 

Burnside

Master endo
Joined
Aug 23, 2019
Messages
308
#7
Artificial weight "inertia" could be just as easily exploited by the greifer, though. You're forgetting that we have ship storage within stations and any station that has at least two ship spawning points will be that much more difficult to try and box in. There's also the question behind salvage rights on unmanned ships when somebody logs off in deep space and intends to come back. Salvaging that ship is technically theft, but you're in a free-play zone so it was a risk you took. So when do players become unbound from their ships and dispossessed? Clearly it can only happen in a safezone since that's the only place we need to be concerned about "permisions". It could be as simple as players submiting a "junk clearance ticket" to the station admin and the admin activating a pulse effect across the safezone once they feel the issue is severe enough to respond to, and any ship that doesn't have at least one occupied command chair becomes "salvageable". But then we have the problem of workpods, etc, that might be unoccupied at the moment the pulse hits, so we might say we want to add a ping-notice effect to all players that might lose their ship which they can respond to (say a 1-10min wait-timer) and exempt themselves and their ship(s) from the pulse. The admin can also selectively target specific ships or players for salvage dispossession if some active griefing is going on.

On the issue of a station admin bullying a specific group or player, well, it's their station and their choice whether to welcome or reject any player which is why I'm an advocate for a multi-layered, categorized karma system that can segregate faction-hate ratings, say, pirates vs freighters/police, from legitimate grievances against the player or group. But even that's not foolproof because people can lie on rating systems- at some point you have to trust the players not to fail the ethics expected of them and let it all go- you can't stop the signal and you can't control for most of the variables, let alone all of them.

There is no solution to how to properly manage free play because it's an antithetical concept, if it's 100% managed then the play isn't free anymore. That's why the rabbit-hole is endless.
 
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