Bots in the game [concern]

[FranklinZ]

It came to me that the Starbase mechanics are just perfect for bot armies.

Bots owned by professional game "workshops" had ruined many MMOs and other games alike. As long as there is a way to trade items between players, these "workshops" will flood the game with bots, causing hyper inflation, and any mineable resources quickly become useless. Players in the end had no choice but to buy items from the "workshops" with real money or not being able to get everything.

It is also foreseeable that wars will be fought by mostly bots. Which side having the most bots wins.

Please don't allow bot armies in the game FB!

 

[CalenLoki]

Which mechanics are you talking about?

The only three sensors currently available are rangefinder, proximity sensor and laser beam sensor.
Yolol (programming language) runs lines at 5hz, and 70 characters per line. And stops working when there is no player within 1km range.

That makes combat bots pretty much impossible, as they are slow and blind.

Also in combat players are soft-limited to how much equipment they can use at once (no auto aim or auto reload available), thus in the end the battles will be won with skill (both piloting, tactics and engineering), not just wealth.

Mining drones are possible, but only if you actively guide them.
I wouldn't call it perfect.

On top of that there are market protection mechanics: minimal price for goods and starting jobs with set wage. Those work only in starting zone, but they make sure you can always get basic gear and ships back.

So no need to worry. At least with current mechanics.

 

[quantin]

No NPC's body in starbase,but have stock economy.

 

[Cannon Machine Ballista]

Which mechanics are you talking about?

The only three sensors currently available are rangefinder, proximity sensor and laser beam sensor.
Yolol (programming language) runs lines at 5hz, and 70 characters per line. And stops working when there is no player within 1km range.

That makes combat bots pretty much impossible, as they are slow and blind.

Also in combat players are soft-limited to how much equipment they can use at once (no auto aim or auto reload available), thus in the end the battles will be won with skill (both piloting, tactics and engineering), not just wealth.

Mining drones are possible, but only if you actively guide them.
I wouldn't call it perfect.

On top of that there are market protection mechanics: minimal price for goods and starting jobs with set wage. Those work only in starting zone, but they make sure you can always get basic gear and ships back.

So no need to worry. At least with current mechanics.

It may be difficult to create an automatic combat ship with YL, but players can use scripts to collect and make money on-line 24 hours a day, or even automatically aim and shoot.

How to make non studio players happy is still a very big problem.

 

[Cannon Machine Ballista]

No NPC's body in starbase,but have stock economy.

The stock economy and bulk trade can still give big studios more benefits than retail players.

So there is still no way to solve this problem.

Maybe it's a good choice to join the studio.

 

[FranklinZ]

Which mechanics are you talking about?

The only three sensors currently available are rangefinder, proximity sensor and laser beam sensor.
Yolol (programming language) runs lines at 5hz, and 70 characters per line. And stops working when there is no player within 1km range.

That makes combat bots pretty much impossible, as they are slow and blind.

Also in combat players are soft-limited to how much equipment they can use at once (no auto aim or auto reload available), thus in the end the battles will be won with skill (both piloting, tactics and engineering), not just wealth.

Mining drones are possible, but only if you actively guide them.
I wouldn't call it perfect.

On top of that there are market protection mechanics: minimal price for goods and starting jobs with set wage. Those work only in starting zone, but they make sure you can always get basic gear and ships back.

So no need to worry. At least with current mechanics.

I'm not talking about in-game AI. I am talking about external scripts. There are people doing this for a living in organized "workshops", and they have hundreds of script controlled accounts mining in-game resources, and selling the resources they mined to players who found their in-game currency worthless with real money.

 

[FranklinZ]

The stock economy and bulk trade can still give big studios more benefits than retail players.

So there is still no way to solve this problem.

Maybe it's a good choice to join the studio.

No good way to solve I guess.
Joining them means giving them real money, not exactly the best choice.

 

[Burnside]

For a botted endoskeleton, which I assume is what you're focusing on, the bot owner would need a spare account and possibly a spare machine or VM to run the extra game instance (or just online the bot while they're offline) the problem is they'd need to touch the source code on the game to scrap data so the bot can function. It can be done, but with a custom engine and most of the game being part to part interactions, botted endos don't have as many utilities as compared to simpler types of game where ships are individual entities and not conglomerations of parts. A functional bot that isn't just for running a shop, autotrader, or infantry script would actually seem to be very impressive.

 

[FranklinZ]

For a botted endoskeleton, which I assume is what you're focusing on, the bot owner would need a spare account and possibly a spare machine or VM to run the extra game instance (or just online the bot while they're offline) the problem is they'd need to touch the source code on the game to scrap data so the bot can function. It can be done, but with a custom engine and most of the game being part to part interactions, botted endos don't have as many utilities as compared to simpler types of game where ships are individual entities and not conglomerations of parts. A functional bot that isn't just for running a shop, autotrader, or infantry script would actually seem to be very impressive.

I agree on bots being very stupid and not being able to compete with players. However, people are doing this for a living and they had tons of experience destroying other games while getting profit out of it, we should not underestimate them.

Instead of needing a new machine, those workshop ran something like 30 accounts on one machine, and they had access to very cheap devices since lag and gameplay is not their concern.

Even if they only made a script to mine in the safe zone, it will still make the market hyper-inflate and crash, by sheer numbers.

In Crossout they worst matchups we will have 18 out of 20 bots in a 10 vs 10 matchup, and I quit the game after that. I heard that some people are still playing, but they had to pay the "workshops" about $50 to get playable weapon parts.

 

[Burnside]

right but in crossout and similar games, the entities are actually targetable "blobs" labeled and tracked by the system. So far as I understand SB's systems, a bot would be targeting active transponders and endos under the same aiming principles used in arena games like crossout. Further, they may not be able to associate parts to nearby transpoders or endos, though they may be able to see the system's method of deciding "what is a ship" and batch targeting those object-clouds. This isn't even accounting for lead angle, the bot would need to determine the target, it's vector (velocity and course), the vector of the botship it's piloting, and the various physics of the weapons. So then you've got a decent turret-bot if you can accomplish all those tasks, but it can't change magazines or pilot a ship or perform repairs.

As far as mining, you might have better luck if it can see each material type in the ores, you might even run into super-prospectors that can see asteroid cores without having to mine the regolith off the top.

 

[FranklinZ]

right but in crossout and similar games, the entities are actually targetable "blobs" labeled and tracked by the system. So far as I understand SB's systems, a bot would be targeting active transponders and endos under the same aiming principles used in arena games like crossout. Further, they may not be able to associate parts to nearby transpoders or endos, though they may be able to see the system's method of deciding "what is a ship" and batch targeting those object-clouds. This isn't even accounting for lead angle, the bot would need to determine the target, it's vector (velocity and course), the vector of the botship it's piloting, and the various physics of the weapons. So then you've got a decent turret-bot if you can accomplish all those tasks, but it can't change magazines or pilot a ship or perform repairs.

As far as mining, you might have better luck if it can see each material type in the ores, you might even run into super-prospectors that can see asteroid cores without having to mine the regolith off the top.

I hope they can't make a big impact on the game.
Honestly, there is not much FB can do than just hope those "workshops" won't bother with Starbase, either because the game is too complicated, or because the profit is to little.

Maybe making ships much more expensive will solve this problem, cause bot ships will be killed easily, but that raises other problems as players loosing their ship will basically have to start over.

 

[Burnside]

cost is never an effective deterrent, it just inflates the economy, you just have to hope the system's architecture itself proves enough of a roadblock to bot development that the anti-cheat system catches what gets through development obstacles

 

[Cannon Machine Ballista]

cost is never an effective deterrent, it just inflates the economy, you just have to hope the system's architecture itself proves enough of a roadblock to bot development that the anti-cheat system catches what gets through development obstacles

The way to avoid imbalance is to open up more parts and parts directions, allowing players to generate spontaneous checks and balances, rather than let FB try to control the overall situation in the hands.

 

[Venombrew]

In a game like starbase auto run farming bots can be very possible. But just like worlds adrift a non-manned bot with resources is just prime for the picking by exiles, pirates, and even passerbys who know thats a bot. This isn't wow or archeage, you dont gather an item and it goes in your inventory untouched. Bots running around to gather resources on a ship, is extremely costly in the events of getting robbed. All material farmed gone, ship gone, and bot left empty handed. Plus once a bot account is known in this kind of game, its over for that player unless he can hide his identity some how. The moment players see that bot heading out to farm(leave safezones) they are going to follow and wait and then pounce for free goods. A autorun bot is not gonna be able to put a real fight of any kind, NO ONES SCRIPTS are that good. So if a player wants to spend real money on multiple accounts and spends weeks if not months trying to figure out how to get this all to work just to lose it all in a blink of an eye, i say go for it.

And i get it, there are going to people very smart and talented people that will be the exception and others will try to model their habits after said person. But the all in all, regular players who want to bot run, good luck, cause your gonna have to pay a lot of attention to that auto run bot, to the point your pretty much just playing the game.

 

[Cavilier210]

I personally have never dealt with these sorts, nor felt the need to even seek them out. So, I don't know what to tell you honestly.

 

[Norway174]

Botting FPS games is not an easy task.

Botting paid FPS games is very unlikely to be done at a large scale.
You'll need to buy one copy for each bot account.

And once that account is discovered, and banned, by FrozenByte. That's a loss of real money. Which, I highly doubt the botters would be able to make back. Even if they somehow were able to create a grey, or even a black market, to sell items in-game for IRL money.

Depending on how much you need to grind, people likely aren't going to risk their accounts getting banned, and spending IRL money on buying resources, they could either mine themselves, or buy from the in-game market.

I don't think bots will be a problem in this game.
However, what could potentially be a problem: Would be cheaters.

See my thread about P2P.

 

[FranklinZ]

In a game like starbase auto run farming bots can be very possible. But just like worlds adrift a non-manned bot with resources is just prime for the picking by exiles, pirates, and even passerbys who know thats a bot. This isn't wow or archeage, you dont gather an item and it goes in your inventory untouched. Bots running around to gather resources on a ship, is extremely costly in the events of getting robbed. All material farmed gone, ship gone, and bot left empty handed. Plus once a bot account is known in this kind of game, its over for that player unless he can hide his identity some how. The moment players see that bot heading out to farm(leave safezones) they are going to follow and wait and then pounce for free goods. A autorun bot is not gonna be able to put a real fight of any kind, NO ONES SCRIPTS are that good. So if a player wants to spend real money on multiple accounts and spends weeks if not months trying to figure out how to get this all to work just to lose it all in a blink of an eye, i say go for it.

And i get it, there are going to people very smart and talented people that will be the exception and others will try to model their habits after said person. But the all in all, regular players who want to bot run, good luck, cause your gonna have to pay a lot of attention to that auto run bot, to the point your pretty much just playing the game.

Botting FPS games is not an easy task.

Botting paid FPS games is very unlikely to be done at a large scale.
You'll need to buy one copy for each bot account.

And once that account is discovered, and banned, by FrozenByte. That's a loss of real money. Which, I highly doubt the botters would be able to make back. Even if they somehow were able to create a grey, or even a black market, to sell items in-game for IRL money.

Depending on how much you need to grind, people likely aren't going to risk their accounts getting banned, and spending IRL money on buying resources, they could either mine themselves, or buy from the in-game market.

I don't think bots will be a problem in this game.
However, what could potentially be a problem: Would be cheaters.

See my thread about P2P.

Yes, writing a script will be difficult, but we are not talking about regular players, instead the real threat comes from "workshops" or "studios" who do this for a living. They will then sell the script to players or/and

A gray IRL money market exists almost in any game with in-game item trading features. Even if there aren't, account trading will still happen.

Banning accounts will be effective. However many game makers in the past don't have enough human resources to ban them in time. Remember the "workshops" run bots in the hundreds or even thousands. Also, you can't really tell if someone is a bot until you engage them, which mean that mining bots could stay unoticed for a long time. If they can get away with making more money than the game's price before an account is banned, bots will still exist.

PVP is also effective, however balance will become a problem. Manned Mining ships won't be a lot better than bots. If pirates can kill bots without effort, they will most likely able to do so to mining players.

 

[Venombrew]

PVP is also effective, however balance will become a problem. Manned Mining ships won't be a lot better than bots. If pirates can kill bots without effort, they will most likely able to do so to mining players.

well of course pirates running a gun ship would take out a mining ship far easier than another gun ship. But a scripted bot only designed to continue the resource farming process is way easier to rob even for players who just have basic weapons. A bot won't be scripted to farm resources and be scripted for AI combat along with ship evasion, its just not gonna happen. Once the bot dies, to even continue farming even in another place he would have to be scripted to either buy a new ship or farm credits to buy another ship and decide in space which direction to go in(space 360 degree direction). It just doesn't seem truly profitable in this game with all the extreme disadvantages if their bot was to die for any reason. And even if he keeps spare ships in his inventory, the bot still has to be scripted to retrieve, and to keep spare ships for constant ship losses would make you no money at all.

 

[FranklinZ]

well of course pirates running a gun ship would take out a mining ship far easier than another gun ship. But a scripted bot only designed to continue the resource farming process is way easier to rob even for players who just have basic weapons. A bot won't be scripted to farm resources and be scripted for AI combat along with ship evasion, its just not gonna happen. Once the bot dies, to even continue farming even in another place he would have to be scripted to either buy a new ship or farm credits to buy another ship and decide in space which direction to go in(space 360 degree direction). It just doesn't seem truly profitable in this game with all the extreme disadvantages if their bot was to die for any reason. And even if he keeps spare ships in his inventory, the bot still has to be scripted to retrieve, and to keep spare ships for constant ship losses would make you no money at all.

I mean botted miners and player controlled miners are not very different when it comes to capability. Bots might actually have the advantage for knowing that someone is coming by looking at memory data. If there is no place for bots to mine and profit, there is likely no place for humans to mine and profit as well. Keep in mind that bots are still controlled by humans, it is just that the human leaves most of the work to script. If one out of 30 miners are attacked, the botter can have 30 accounts and manually deal with attacks. Further more he can also leave the mining to the bots while piloting a escort ship himself. There might be whole factions of bots and players using bots.

 

[Cannon Machine Ballista]

I mean botted miners and player controlled miners are not very different when it comes to capability. Bots might actually have the advantage for knowing that someone is coming by looking at memory data. If there is no place for bots to mine and profit, there is likely no place for humans to mine and profit as well. Keep in mind that bots are still controlled by humans, it is just that the human leaves most of the work to script. If one out of 30 miners are attacked, the botter can have 30 accounts and manually deal with attacks. Further more he can also leave the mining to the bots while piloting a escort ship himself. There might be whole factions of bots and players using bots.

This is very possible and very dangerous. We should be careful about this problem and find a way to solve it, such as confusing memory.