Competition, Fairness, and Dev Intervention

[Recatek]

This has been bugging me for some time now, having seen it form and take shape in various ways over the course of the past year, but especially as CA evolves and matures into more of a game. I've finally sat down and written it out to get it off my chest and to raise my concerns to FB in a single, coherent document. I'm posting it now as we go into the upcoming tournament -- the first of which to offer an actual, appealing, prize. I'll admit, I've been afraid to post this, since criticism of FB and its team is often taken as an affront by the very supportive community here, but I feel it needs to be said and am willing to face the consequences of doing so.

Starbase is a competitive game.
Starbase, by its very nature as a persistent single-shard MMO, is inherently and inevitably competitive. Asteroids may be effectively infinite, but with regionalized distributions the valuable pockets they form won't be. Station placement relies on competition for resources and finite common travel routes to various points of interest. Even within stations, competition for optimal positioning of lots is a battle for those interested in maximizing attention and foot traffic to shops. With the player systems FB has in mind, trade itself will be fiercely competitive for market share and overall spending power. This to say nothing of competition for member counts in guilds, reputations, and so on. Nearly every element of the game has a zero-sum result and while many resources are abundant, there will be winners and losers in almost every aspect of gameplay.

Competitive games depend on fairness.
For players to trust the game, the game must treat them fundamentally equally. Everyone plays by the same rules, has the same game client, and has the same information presented to them from the game. To do otherwise is cheating, not unlike aimbots, wallhacks, and so on. Affording exclusive opportunities to one group of players but not others creates a situation where faith in the game dissolves and motivation to compete diminishes. If your merit alone isn't enough for you to have a chance at winning in the end, why bother? Your effort is a waste, and so too is the time you invested. This is often the case with pay-to-win mechanics, which FB is fortunately adamantly opposed to, but potential advantages don't stop there.

In Starbase, information is an advantage.
This is a game about complexity and knowledge. Ship design is a mind-bogglingly intricate exercise of optimization and testing that takes weeks or months of discovery and experimentation to truly master. Many mechanics are hidden from the player (How much energy does a thruster consume? How much does this object weigh? How many laser shots can this plate withstand?) and need to be discovered either by the community or, ideally, individual testing. Even then, testing yields only-so-accurate results. Not only that, but sometimes this information is closely guarded and secret, especially in situations where it confers an advantage in combat. When the rules of the game change (as they often do currently in CA), it requires a new set of testing, a new set of designing, a new set of building -- processes that can take days to weeks of redone work and can happen really at any moment.

Developers have privileged access to information.
Those creating the game have direct access to balance and mechanical information in concrete terms, and can also control those numbers with the unique ability to tweak them to their advantage. Will they? Chances are slim, but you're still relying on us to simply trust that they won't. Some who have been burned by prior experience won't and shouldn't. I know hero worship is common in early-game communities, and criticism of Frozenbyte is treading on dangerous ground here, but I'll be blunt in saying that there are good reasons to be skeptical of any developer in this situation given the power available to them and their level of investment in the game.

Not only do developers have access to otherwise hidden numbers and values, but they also have insider knowledge on updates and release schedules. Is a balance patch going to change the damage the weapons on your ships do? You as a player may not know it. That patch may just happen to land the day before you're planning to fight a faction with developers on their team. Do you trust that developer to not tell their team or their friends of this upcoming advantage ahead of time? Do most players? Most importantly, if this developer is designing ships for their team, and knows of this upcoming change (or is even the one making it), is that fair to the playerbase who wants to engage in a level playing field for competition?

Developers compete in the game alongside and against the players.
Empire and Kingdom are the institutionalized examples of this, but it extends beyond that. Even between the two dev factions there's a clear favorite. In the context of these dev-owned factions, developers are designing ships that only some of the player base has access to. Some with unique and exclusive materials unavailable to others. Developers share internal information about the game, including information about upcoming changes and updates (some affecting balance) as privileged information with their factions or even just in private messages that aren't public knowledge. Does this completely demolish all other factions? Certainly not. However it is a privilege that other factions have to work harder to compete against, and one that players simply can't replicate on their own. If you lose a fight against a developer-blessed faction, you will always have to ask, was that fair? Or was there some advantage that they had specifically as a developer faction?

This creates an unfair game.
It is my opinion that having Frozenbyte developers participate in the competitive, faction vs. faction landscape of the game is uncomfortable. Favoritism of some factions over others is a huge, scandal-level taboo in any other MMO that features persistent guild vs. guild conflict, and for good reason. Kingdom and Empire play by special rules and enjoy special privileges that are unavailable to any other faction, including having developers actively play with and aid them in exclusive ways and with exclusive insight. It is unclear to me what price, if any, that they pay in exchange for that. It is also unclear to me what keeps them adherent to this tradeoff. If Empire's advantages come in exchange for limited autonomy, what enforces that? The factions are still predominantly operated by players, and I don't think I'm in the wrong here as far as limiting my trust in player benevolence. Not only that, but this privilege extends to special player factions who are "allied" with Kingdom and/or Empire, and thus selected for favor by the devs. I am uncomfortable with trying to compete in a game where the devs openly select their own personal favorite factions/players and give them advantages -- either directly or by proxy/alliance.

At the end of the day, I want to compete against players, not "god". I certainly wouldn't want to play chess against the neighborhood kid who suddenly decides that their knight can move to the other side of the board. Playing a game to win, that you also make, is a ripe opportunity for breaches of faith that erode trust, and seeing threads of this woven into the fabric of Starbase concerns me.

TL;DR: Read the big text.

 

[Vampiricdust]

This game is not competitive at all, it's a sandbox game.

A story driven game isn't about fairness. This is not Ark, Atlas, Rust, or any of those games. Starbase is closer to WoW than fps competitive game by a million miles.

You want competitive play, you've got the wrong game. You're more likely to find a Runescape like experience than anything. You seem to be stuck on the whole pvp thing and ignoring the sandbox portion of the game which throws competitive pvp out the window. There is nothing to compete over, no one cares if you win some objective as it's less than 1% of the game options.

 

[Recatek]

This game is not competitive at all, it's a sandbox game.

"Sandbox" and "competitive" are not mutually exclusive. At least, not in the persistent MMO sense. The fact that you have a wealth of options doesn't mean you aren't competing with other players to participate in them.

Want a good trading spot on a popular travel route?
You're competing with anyone else who wants to put a station there for a pit stop.

Want a good shop location in a popular station?
You're competing with anyone else who wants a lot near a high traffic area (such as the SSC hangar or public transit stops).

Want a regular supply of materials for crafting ship parts and other goods?
You're competing with everyone else via supply and demand as prices fluctuate.

Want access to region-specific materials in certain parts of the belt?
You're competing with everyone else who wants to try to control that territory and claim it as their own.

Want to make a name for your faction and claim territory just to mark your turf?
You'd better believe you're competing with everyone else who wants to kick you out of that space for the same reason.

From individual trading to large-scale faction vs. faction conflict, everyone is in competition in nearly every activity in this game. Anything you want (space, money, resources, recognition, ...), chances are someone else wants it too, and there's only so much of it go around in a finite single-world game. Even mining will grow competitive over time. Certainly the entire belt will never be depleted, but rare and desirable asteroids in a given region will become more sparse as time goes on and more players exploit the area. With finite space and resources, the inevitable result is competition for them. And that's a good thing, since conflict drives interesting multiplayer gameplay. However, favoritism compromises faith that this competition is fair, since developers can play by distinct, arbitrary rules and have unparalleled access to the game's mechanics. That isn't healthy, or proper.

As an aside, it's interesting that you mention Runescape because they had their own scandal of a developer stealing from a player and being fired for it, after also playing with a clan implicated in DDoSing their opponents in a tournament. In their statement on the matter they acknowledge similar (later justified) concerns about favoritism and impropriety and go to lengths to point out that their developers are not permitted to participate or interfere in the game's competitive environment.

 

[0ozymandias]

This game is not competitive at all, it's a sandbox game.

Outside of PvP there are still competitive areas.

Even if you've been in the Starbase Discord for as short as a month you know that there are many factions or companies that cover things from mining, to designing and selling ships, and even some that specialize in station building. It doesn't matter if PvP is a large aspect of the game or not, simply put, nearly every other aspect of the game is competitive and a dev being the back-pocket of a faction or company can give them a massive advantage in any which way.


And before people start saying that these devs have done nothing and you should trust them: You can't. You can't ever trust someone to be impartial or unbiased, its best for the devs to step away as far as possible from playing favorites.

 

[JoelFB]

Thanks for the feedback! We do appreciate it, even if a lot of our replies tend to be along the same lines of "Early Access" (will magically fix things). But in this case the answer is something else. I personally think Starbase is a lot more than just "competitive" or more than a sandbox - Starbase has a mix of everything but it's not either of these as such, in my opinion. However the individual points are correct and valid, and I'll try to provide some dev insight into this.

We see the dev factions in a rather different way. For us they serve some important functions - they help with new player onboarding, they allow us to guide the experience a little bit, and provide some background story for players (albeit at this point it's not very important). They, or more specifically Empire and its VIS/police forces, are a crucial part of our anticheat/anti-griefing plan, and we will need players to help us with this (while keeping watch on any abuse of power/reserving e.g. game bans to devs only if there's enough evidence). We want a "physical presence" in the game instead of just operating in the background. In a way we don't want to play "god" behind the scenes, we want to be a visible entity.

I agree with many of your points but disagree with the premise - I don't think Empire should be seen as a faction similar to player factions, because it's not. It will always have an "advantage" - it's ruled by Lauri, the Emperor, who is the leader of all of Starbase's development. This has ramifications and it would be hard to make Empire perfectly objective or like any normal faction. In a way I would liken the situation to that of different sides in an RTS game - Empire plays differently than the others, but our ultimate end goal is to provide a fun experience for everyone, and a fair experience too even if some individual things are not equal between Empire and the rest.

That said, we don't see Empire as a direct competitor to player factions (e.g. in my analogy Empire vs a player faction in a single match is not part of our vision), rather it enables a lot of features for everybody. At this point we feel Empire is absolutely needed in the universe and we couldn't develop the game without it. We see the positives of direct involvement outweighing the negatives, and taking part directly helps us develop a better game. In a way we're going for a more "curated" playing experience than a "here's the rules, now play" kind of game that many do.

Now, as for other factions and developers, while we haven't made an official decision on this, I see it very likely that we will not allow developers to participate in any player factions other than Empire/Kingdom, or if we do, it'll be under some strict guidelines that will be made public.

A big question is what happens to Empire as the game evolves, and for that I don't have an answer. We don't know. It does look likely that Empire will be a big faction in the beginning of the game (Early Access onwards), and I would expect it to remain the biggest faction for a while.

Perhaps the biggest question then becomes, will a player who joins Empire have an unfair advantage against players in other factions? I don't have a definite answer on this. I think the playing experience is different, Empire is more rigid in its structure and has a very clear leadership, and it does limit the freedom given to an individual Empire player. They will have to abide by the 'rules' of Empire. I'm not sure how much of this is currently implemented but in the end it's the Emperor's choice of where he wants Empire to go. In Empire you're not going to be arguing with the Emperor, put it that way. Playing for other factions is more freeform and as long as there's no game offenses (like cheating or direct violation of game rules/TOS), it's up to each faction to do whatever they please.

This isn't a comprehensive explanation (and I'm not part of Empire so I cannot speak for their day-to-day activities), but there is/will be a clear difference between Empire and other factions, and it is in many ways intentional.

I'm not sure if this post alleviates any of your concerns - I guess we'll find out eventually how this turns out. I am hopeful it'll all work out but this is something we'll have to keep a closer eye on as we get to Early Access and beyond.

- Joel, Frozenbyte

 

[Recatek]

Perhaps the biggest question then becomes, will a player who joins Empire have an unfair advantage against players in other factions?

So I want to walk through a plausible situation to try to illustrate how, in the current situation of things, a player can have such an advantage without anyone at FB acting maliciously or cheating, and without even being a member of a dev faction.

---

It's well into Early Access and you and I are both happily playing the game. We're in two different player factions and have been for some time. My faction, while owned and operated entirely by players, is on friendly terms with Empire's player leadership. Your faction has no such relationship with Empire. In fact, your faction and my faction are hostile to one another -- owing to a recent incident where some of your members tried to pirate one of our miners.

It just so happens that you and I are avid ship designers, and we're both in the final days of making new designs for large expensive warships. You're designing a ship for your faction, and I'm designing a ship for mine. As experienced designers we both know that the current meta is to make armor in so many layers with, let's just say for argument's sake, Bastonium as its material. That is what's most effective right now in the game, and we want the best for our ships, so both of our upcoming designs are using that armor configuration. These are big and heavy ships, and so that armor isn't cheap.

Now, since we're on friendly terms, my faction regularly participates in "joint operations" with Empire, not unlike some of the ones we've already seen in CA. Today, we're going on a mining trip together, and we'll need all the protection we can get in case you decide to ambush us again. It just so happens that in our group voice chat for the mining op, there's an FB dev hanging out to mine with us. They're a member of Empire and that isn't unusual or abnormal for them to join us in joint operations.

Mining can be repetitive at times, and so we often chat about various things. At some point the topic of military ship design comes up. Particularly, a few of us ship designers express frustration at how "stale" the current ship design meta is. Everyone uses basically the same armor material and armor configuration. "Don't worry about that for too long," replies the dev we're playing with. When pressed to elaborate, they explain that there's a patch, probably next week, that will significantly nerf the armor/weight ratio of Bastonium.

Later that day after the mining op finishes, I run some numbers and do some tests and conclude that, as a result of that upcoming nerf, Bastonium armor in such and such a configuration is indeed no longer the ideal armor plating for the ship I'm building. I was planning on putting my ship into production tomorrow or the day after, but now that I know about this patch I decide to wait before committing to the cost. After the patch is released I do some testing, update the design, and am ready to start having my ships built without issue. Our new state-of-the-art armor configuration will give us an edge for days or weeks while our enemies scramble to adapt and retrofit.

You, on the other hand, had no idea about this patch at the time it was revealed to me. You and I are in mutually hostile factions, so I as a savvy player would never tell you the insider information I received. Your ship still has the soon-to-be-outdated Bastonium armor. Proceeding as normal, you finish your design and distribute the blueprint to your faction for everyone to buy before the patch is released or even made known to you. After spending perhaps hundreds of millions of credits in the production process, the patch lands and your ship is rendered far less viable, if not completely obsolete. That was a large investment that your faction made in purchasing so many copies of your ship, and the financial setback affects your faction's later conflicts in PvP for weeks or months to come.

If you were to ever find out that we knew about the patch days or weeks before you did, I bet you and your faction would be furious.

---

Now, did the dev do anything wrong here? No, this was casual conversation and that was information that, if asked, the dev would willingly share to anyone, including you. My question though is, how could you possibly know to ask about a patch you don't know about? How do you possibly have the same exposure or casual conversation time with the devs to ask questions like that? After all, you're enemies with the dev faction's friends. They would be far less likely to sit in a voice chat playing the game with you. This was a completely innocent discussion between fans and devs, and there's no malice or cheating on the devs' part. But "innocent" can still be "harmful", and the ramifications here did change the balance of the game in ways beyond the power of any player. I see that as unfair, and it's a big part of the reason direct dev involvement is a taboo in games like this.

 

[AkseliFB]

This is my personal opinion, not 100% sure how Lauri wants to play this out.

Now, did the dev do anything wrong here? No...

I disagree. After EA launch all information about future changes should be announced publicly. Devs should keep quiet on things like this.

 

[Recatek]

Devs should keep quiet on things like this.

I guess my question then is, if you were just a player and this happened in a chat you were participating in, would you say something? Would you call them out for doing something inappropriate? You and everyone in your channel directly benefit from getting this kind of exclusive information. You'd probably get jumped on by your teammates for trying to "ruin" the good thing that just happened to you, and for straining your group's very important relationship with the devs. You might be worried that if the devs aren't telling you these things, they might end up telling other people in the future instead. I don't know how many people would have the guts to stand up in that situation and hold anyone accountable, given the social power imbalance.

 

[AkseliFB]

I guess my question then is, if you were just a player and this happened in a chat you were participating in, would you say something? Would you call them out for doing something inappropriate? You and everyone in your channel directly benefit from getting this kind of exclusive information. You'd probably get jumped on by your teammates for trying to "ruin" the good thing that just happened to you, and for straining your group's very important relationship with the devs. You might be worried that if the devs aren't telling you these things, they might end up telling other people in the future instead. I don't know how many people would have the guts to stand up in that situation and hold anyone accountable, given the social power imbalance.

Not going to speculate further into this while I have no idea how this is handled. It may very well be that NDA prevents us to speak anything about future changes after EA launch. If that's the case, problem solved.

 

[JoelFB]

Dev participation in general - it's probably something we'll have to iterate on. Lauri will be speaking his mind throughout Early Access, just like now, I'm sure, so players who are on the Discord server and actively follow things may always gain a small advantage. We can probably implement rules for devs not to speak on non-public channels (i.e. faction-specific channels) about anything that would give an advantage of any kind to the recipients.

Now, should the hypothetical situation happen, and I'm sure it will as it's just human nature to make these kind of blunders - there's ways to counter this. And also I should note that this could happen without a player being part of a dev faction by simply hanging out at the right place at the right time. Devs playing for a dev faction will probably go through some kind of training before/during EA, so hopefully they'll know what's appropriate and what's not as they have to actively face these kind of situations on a daily/weekly basis. "Normal" devs might be at more risk for being caught up in a moment and not having prepared for it mentally... But anyway, let's assume the incident happens and you get privileged information ahead of the patch release.

One of the easiest ways we can counter this is to simply have rules for devs that if they say something like that, they let us know (e.g. CMs/marketing/Lauri), and we can then take appropriate action - most likely announce publicly that there is a patch in the works that will affect armor balance, essentially repeating to the larger public whatever the dev inadvertly said to a smaller group. This should be reasonably easy to implement and have good effect. We have a pretty good culture for this kind of thing so I trust our devs would come forward if they make a small blunder like this - it's not the end of the world and we can deal with it.

Something as important as a major armor re-balance should probably be announced in advance anyway (you know, the whole landrush situation as we've talked about before). What I said applies to everything big and small though. It's not the players' responsibility to come forward if they've obtained information (they can, of course), it's the devs', and we'll make sure everyone follows the same code on the dev side. I can see if we can even make the "Dev Rules" available publicly, shouldn't be an issue as part of the ToS or Code of Conduct. (No ETA, but basically for Early Access launch.)

- Joel, Frozenbyte

 

[Popster]

See thats the issue its very very hard for any dev highly involved in something to not let something slip at any point i get you hope that the devs will say if they made a blunder like that but they have an genuine investment in the faction they are apart of that clouds their decisions, they could still report it but sometime after it happened so the faction still gets the advantage you just cant trust someone to be perfect while having knowledge that benefits the people they like and play with and want to succeed.

 

[Popster]

The reason Reca worries soo much is because before when devs have stakes in factions they have used insider knowledge even when not allowed to benefit them and the faction they are in. Its why as a general thing devs are not meant to play their game known as themselves and in any competitive areas

 

[Vampiricdust]

Empire from the start has been dedicated to helping the devs fulfill their aims for the game. I was personally against the idea at first, but after talking to Lauri about it over time while helping people in FAQ channel, I realized that Empire is basically a faction meant to act as the NPC faction would be in typical games. I see us acting as CONCORD from EVE Online.

All the leadership in Empire understand that what Lauri says, goes. If he thinks for the game we should try to build a city on a moon, then that's what we'll do. What he wants though is as Joel described, help new players get into the game, generate content and activity for the wider community to be part of if they want, keep griefing and harassment in check, and report anything bad to the devs that's above our authority to fix.

Having a war with Kingdom is also a major draw for players and is the main reason Empire & Kingdom are getting things. This isn't a surprise and was known from the start. Player factions are free to go outside the starting area and do as they want. Unfortunately, this is a MMO and yes, you cannot separate what the devs do from what impacts players, that's kind of the whole point of the one shared world experience.

The game has lots of ways to compete and be competitive, but the game design presented from day 1 was more "story" or dev influenced game. They are going to impact one another and things will conflict. Changing the game plans now to make it competitive when what was advertised got it to this point seems like a rash move.

 

[Recatek]

I see us acting as CONCORD from EVE Online.

That's very noble, but also terrifying. CONCORD is, notably, entirely NPC-driven in EVE. It would be an incredibly unpopular decision were CCP to ever give players that massive amount of power in their game. And for good reason. (For context to anyone else reading, CONCORD is the nearly invulnerable "space police" faction that shows up and almost immediately destroys any ship engaging in PvP in EVE's high-security/safe zone systems.) This is a bone I pick regularly with Frozenbyte but you can't simply expect players to act as consistently, reliably, or fairly as NPCs do, nor with the same level of unfaltering commitment. NPCs are inherently trustworthy in ways players never can be. Notably, I'm saying this as someone who volunteers to moderate the forums and discord, and I'll be the first to admit that I am not perfect. I certainly wouldn't trust me with CONCORD-level powers in-game, nor anyone else outside of FB's offices.

All the leadership in Empire understand that what Lauri says, goes.

This has yet to be tested in any meaningful way, and I still have my doubts. Even the most benevolent players, which I'm sure you are, cannot be trusted to put the interests of the game's overall health above their own personal stakes and goals. This is a voluntary leisure activity that we all play ultimately for our personal entertainment and benefit. The sole entity that can be trusted to act without personal interest in the game is the one that is paid and contracted to do so -- the dev team. Even they are fallible, just as developers have been in other games, and just as one can imagine in the mostly innocent situation I narrated above. Even if the player leadership now is truly the best and most self-sacrificing, will it be in the future? Players come and go, and you can't always guarantee that you'll find the best of them.

you cannot separate what the devs do from what impacts players

Of course not, but you can, and most games do, separate the devs themselves from the players. In this environment the most appropriate conduct is for devs and players to exist at different "levels" in the game, and not for devs to participate as if they were simply another player. Devs are effectively gods in the game worlds they create, capable of changing the laws of physics and with knowledge about other game rules that no player can access. This, as I explain above, creates an imbalance where devs-as-players join the game with advantages no other player can possibly match, and can (even accidentally) extend that benefit exclusively to those they play with. It simply isn't reasonable to expect anyone else to be comfortable competing against them and their friends in what should otherwise be a symmetrically balanced environment.

the game design presented from day 1 was more "story" or dev influenced game

I explain earlier how I believe conflict and competition are unavoidable here even if the intent is story. Either way, there are plenty of MMOs that run story events, or have an evolving story in their world. They aren't dependent on devs playing day-to-day like other players. A common example is GM (game master) events, where a paid employee appears in the game skinned anonymously as a famous NPC from the game's story, and talks to the playerbase like an actor of sorts to direct all participants towards some goal or objective. This maintains a healthy separation between devs and players with less risk of favoritism (this isn't your friend, the developer, talking to you -- this is Dr. Bolt, famous in-lore NPC, appearing in-game at a pre-announced time, and you don't even know which dev is playing them today). I would be much more comfortable with Empire and Kingdom if it had adopted this indirect GM-like approach initially, rather than blurring the lines between dev and player as it currently does.

 

[Vampiricdust]

I think you're letting perfect be the enemy of fun.

The most obvious source of players with abusable powers is the mod team. Which we know for a fact has been abused. Empire players dont get anything any player faction cannot get with exception to a head start to fulfill our role as one of the community content generators.

Empire players cannot ban others players like mods can. Empire players have no reason to abuse powers unlike the current mod team who mostly have player factions they are part of. You as a mod could ban and mute enemies of Collective. I have zero power as an Empire player to do anything but what a normal player can do.

How many people did the mods ban and mute who never got a chance to be in CA? You want to talk about unfairness with players with powers, we should start with the mod team.

If the mod team is given mod powers in game, the amount of abuse from mods will be 1000 times worse what Empire players could cause. The mod team has historically shown very bad judgment and very bad behavior with zero repercussions.

So perhaps there's something to your concerns, but perhaps the mod team needs more attention since we all know how bad they are. I still get messages to this day asking if anything has changed with the mods or if the mods are still immune to the rules.

Empire players will never be immune to the rules unlike mods. We will hold our own accountable at least while I'm in Empire.

 

[ElluFB]

How many people did the mods ban and mute who never got a chance to be in CA? You want to talk about unfairness with players with powers, we should start with the mod team.

If the mod team is given mod powers in game, the amount of abuse from mods will be 1000 times worse what Empire players could cause. The mod team has historically shown very bad judgment and very bad behavior with zero repercussions.

I'd like to remind that we as a CM team oversee all moderation actions taken in the Discord server, and that we and the higher development team are the ones making the decisions on who gets or doesn't get access to the CA. Discord/forum moderators have no special roles or permissions inside the game. When talking about in-game "moderation" situations and how they are handled, things are still under works.

 

[FatFly]

After really digesting the subject, I felt I should share my PoV. In this case it is safe to consider "me" as an objective observer due to the fact that I was part of the Empire Faction from before the CA and also not, as I was kicked from Empire Military being too radical for the current situation... but politics aside, everybody in Empire was surprised me being in CA and to be honest I never adapted to Empire Military regime after rejoining.

So I am in Empire factions, but I am also not fully dedicated Empire citizen as I do not share all opinions and decisions made in Empire.

To make it shorter later I had to write a longer intro.

Recatek concerns are realistic theoretically. Not wrong, but also not fully justifiable. It is a theory that, if like Recatek said - can ruin the game for players, but imo, not likely to happen and probably quite opposite. I can give you an insight without violating Empire rules on sharing information! And to emphasize, the only rule we have in Empire regarding information security is directly based on specific ship designs, ship interior equipment and it is more part of the "game we play" then any kind of advantage developed from critical devs secrets.

First of all, there are much better ship designers in player factions than devs are in Empire or Kingdom. There are so many design problems that community solved or suggested that made Empire ship designs sometimes better (still not the best)... On the other hand, many from Empire shared publicly design tricks, "numbers"/calculations, solutions for problems on main SB Discord server in many channels, mostly in #ship-design. I am also regular there and all I learn from devs and colleagues I post with examples I made myself to test it in practice, not just to share theoretical solutions. Even when I was on the edge to leave Empire on personal reasons, related to human relations, I never understood people that constantly complained that Empire or Kingdom are favored by devs and have a huge advantage... nor they ever proven the facts they offered as a base for those accusations. It is like some people forget that devs actually playing the game with us means only that the game will be BETTER later in EA and after official v.1.0 is out there! I remained as Empire officer only as I felt it would be a betrayal to these dedicated guys that we are supposed to help, not criticize without more then abstract, disputable or vague facts. And I still feel I can do more to help game development as Alpha Tester as being part of the best organized faction in the game.

So if one day I face the problem in SSC building a ship for Empire Military, I will ask present dev to help me. The knowledge there is not a secret and I am not obliged to keep it from others... On the contrary, I share it fully with community on main SB Discord and the only thing any player needs to do to stay in a loop is to participate in discussions in these channels. Yes, the source of the knowledge are dev teams and players in Empire/Kingdom, as devs faction members are sharing it further. The only reason this is TRUE FACT is that Empire have organized and numerous members gathered around the devs authority. Without active, dedicated devs from the start... Empire would not be much different from Kingdom, regarding internal organization. If anybody is to receive a critic (which I do not believe is needed or necessary) it maybe could be devs that failed to achieve the same results in Kingdom. That critic would have more base then one placed on Empire... Imagine now people blaming devs for not achieving stable and populated community in Kingdom! IMO both "sets of accusations" are pointless as result shows that having an active, dedicated devs in direct cooperation with players just gives more to everybody - the higher developers, the community managers and at last but not at least to us players - we all benefit! Imagine now how the devs in Empire feel being accused for "power misuse" now after months of free time they spent in developing Empire faction. Yeah! Free Time! I can't remember how many times I waited for an answer from a dev buddy in faction to come home from his work and explore the problem I presented, test it himself and help me solve it before going to bed to sleep.

I know for sure that Recatek did not meant to insult anybody or make anybody hurt and the concern he expressed are absolutely valid and should be addressed, but I wanted you all to see the other side too and to take all accounts into consideration! Our primary purpose in CA is to help developers to make a better game for all of us! It is not a function of a competitions like PvP tournaments to prove who is better and who is not! It is to stress test the game to the limits that define a future of the game!

So, to conclude! Being in devs factions Empire or Kingdom is a potential advantage but very short termed, as we are not keepers of the secrets - more like an interface between devs and players, testing the concepts and sharing if valid - warning if invalid. What is a realistic advantage in Empire is that included devs are dedicated gamers themselves and community leaders and they managed to organize Empire community to efficiently provide a number of players in any time to test game features when needed.

PvP combat is stress test for every game and if that works as intended, most of the remaining interactions between players (trade, logistics, exploration, resource management) is fairly inside the safe success margin! If the game systems can handle 20 ships fighting in a small area, the game will progress in all other accounts. Consider PvP as a borderline for the game's "play-ability". The Empire was at the start of the CA more successful in PvP due to internal organization and player pool management! Not because devs made the best ships but because devs had a chance to test ship designs by many more players considering other factions. Empire pilots were contributing as test pilots for ships that after many modifications came out as efficient and competitive. Today we have strong factions that are absolutely competitive in PvP, ship design, number of members and activity of members. I bet Collective will wreck Empire Apollo Team

It is not the same if you make a ship and fly a few hours in it and if you make a ship and 10 people are using it every day, sending you feedback! It is only natural that organized Faction will have more success in this regard.

Honestly I do not fully enjoy being in Empire faction as I often conflict with internal and external politics Empire management is propagating. This has nothing to do with involved devs again! It is just people as they are and majority rules with opinion over minority - right or wrong. But, if I make a ship (as a ship designer I consider myself), in Empire my ship will be evaluated by much more experienced pilots - Plural - and I can only make better ship next time sharing that experience with my game mates. And Empire is successful in making good stuff due to the fact that we have a community leaders that have authority and skill to gather players around the idea. FB dev is ultimate authority and we players have natural organic respect toward devs that share the game time with us. It is a great game and we love the people that made it and we are prone to follow them in all game endeavors.

So having a dev in Empire is advantage only as authority that can make things happen! There are no secrets that will make a difference on a long run and really the only danger any other faction that is hostile toward Empire can face is the unity of all Empire citizens when called to mine for resources for new station, to build a new fleet or if called to arms to fight the enemy in actual game environment or in Tournaments organized by devs or players.

Thank you for your time and effort reading this. English is not my native language, so feel free to ask for clarifications if something is fuzzy there.
Cheers! And may The Devs provide us with the best game ever and may all Alpha Testers become communists and forget about their station inventory capacity... until the EA is all over us!

 

[Geronimo553]

In short, there is no competitive advantage as claimed in the original post. In Empire our single dev Ville works tirelessly to organize our group and keep us objective based towards goals. Then our lovely community of Imperials put our minds together and share ideas on how to best reach that objective. Our members and leadership are very active daily and we communicate new information discovered the moment it is found. We have multiple teams of players both in Empire and in the neutral sector dedicated towards these tasks, like ship building for instance. This gives us a competitive advantage by statistical supremacy alone. By having more minds and more backgrounds across a global clock 24/7 all working towards new ideas and sharing experience then we are always at the forefront of advancement.

The information we are given in Empire is the same information FB gives everyone else on discord. So this concern over unfair gameplay is out of place and perhaps from a perspective trying to understand the unknown. Because from my perspective, this entire thread is targeting Ville for just being active in the Starbase community. I say this because Kingdom has far more devs in their faction and "none" of the devs are active in the game for Kingdom nor active in their community. FB has committed very little support/help (next to none) into either dev faction leaving everything up to the players to decide. The stark differences between activity between the two dev faction communities highlights this as true. So no, our growth is not due too favoritism by FB as some try to claim. But because our Imperial community is very active on its own by its own members. Our dev, on his own, volunteers his free time in game because he enjoys playing starbase like we do. He spends many hours in the ship editor building or dealing with communication with the Starbase community for either game questions or Empire. In fact, to clarify, there have been many times where we have shown Ville things he thought as not possible or we discovered various exploits in released updates. Which we relay to Ville and they are swiftly taken care of the within next FB work day typically.

In Empire we often talk about the importance of supporting the Starbase community as a whole. We go out of our way to create opportunities for neutral groups to grow and the idea is Empire and Kingdom will draw in new player interest through conflict so our universe can continue to grow, for the benefit of us all. There have been many times where I disagreed about doing certain thing because it exposed a weakness or gave out a little too much about inner Empire workings. But Lauri wants us to create things to do for the Starbase community and that means we have to take such risks.

One such opportunity we have running is our fighter program. We contacted several dozen neutral ship building companies about designing a [REDACTED] fighter back in March. That offer included a continuation of neutrality agreement, production rights, manufacturing on our stations at reduced cost, lot of manufacture would be paid for by Empire requiring no cost to operate, and a very large sum of continuous money for each fighter produced. Those who agreed on the program are now competing against each other for the best design that we will determine after closed alpha. You would be surprised how insanely difficult it was to get players to even consider the offer let alone commit to an agreement... Those are the type of things FB intends the dev factions to do and to keep the game interesting for everyone.

In conclusion, Empire has no more of competitive advantage than what you can create for your own group through communication in the community. We, Imperials, built everything Empire is and FB has never had any real involvement or contribution. You can build something just as strong if you try yourself. Empire's goal is to get the game off its feet and help build the community by providing various opportunities and fun events. Like it, hate it, the choice is yours to make, it is Starbase afterall.

 

[Recatek]

I thought this thread had run its course, but I'll reiterate and clarify some of my points here:

First of all, there are much better ship designers in player factions than devs are in Empire or Kingdom. There are so many design problems that community solved or suggested that made Empire ship designs sometimes better (still not the best)... On the other hand, many from Empire shared publicly design tricks, "numbers"/calculations, solutions for problems on main SB Discord server in many channels, mostly in #ship-design.

Nowhere am I saying that developers are the best ship designers, or that some advantage comes from that quality. The potential advantage comes from (a) intimate knowledge of game mechanics that are otherwise not fully exposed to players, but that could be shared with them in exclusive conversation, (b) advance knowledge of upcoming changes to relevant mechanics that could aid in "future-proofing" designs and the pipelines to create them, and (c) the potential to alter the rules of the game in favor of one group or another asking for such changes. The fact that some of this information has been shared so far is helpful, but that is optional, and other information could just as easily be withheld.

So if one day I face the problem in SSC building a ship for Empire Military, I will ask present dev to help me. The knowledge there is not a secret and I am not obliged to keep it from others... On the contrary, I share it fully with community on main SB Discord and the only thing any player needs to do to stay in a loop is to participate in discussions in these channels. Yes, the source of the knowledge are dev teams and players in Empire/Kingdom, as devs faction members are sharing it further.

I can't remember how many times I waited for an answer from a dev buddy in faction to come home from his work and explore the problem I presented, test it himself and help me solve it before going to bed to sleep.

In fact, to clarify, there have been many times where we have shown Ville things he thought as not possible or we discovered various exploits in released updates. Which we relay to Ville and they are swiftly taken care of the within next FB work day typically.

These all are part of my point. The fact that devs are readily accessible more easily to a select group of players, and not as accessible to others who don't have a similar relationship, is something that I see as an issue. I appreciate that you've shared the information you've received, though I imagine some of that information is lost in transmission. Ultimately though, neither you nor other players are under any obligation to share those things, and one could just as easily choose to withhold that insight. One could even do so without the rest of the community ever knowing -- I've been told things about game mechanics and have been specifically asked not to share them. I wouldn't share anything I deemed advantageous anyway, and I'm certainly not the only one who thinks that way in a competitive game. Knowledge is power.

This kind of nonuniform, asymmetrical information distribution is dangerous for the playerbase as a whole. There is immense power in being one of the game's developers, since they shape the nature of the game itself, and I believe that comes with it a responsibility to avoid choosing sides or particular players over others when it comes to interpersonal interactions or revealed information. This to say nothing of the power to make balance changes to the game. I've given examples above (such as anonymous GM events) for how it's possible to still have a positive impact on the game world without inviting favoritism through dev-player relationships. I think that's far safer in the long run, and helps maintain a professional distance between the game's players and the game's rules.

IMO both "sets of accusations" are pointless as result shows that having an active, dedicated devs in direct cooperation with players just gives more to everybody - the higher developers, the community managers and at last but not at least to us players - we all benefit! Imagine now how the devs in Empire feel being accused for "power misuse" now after months of free time they spent in developing Empire faction.

This could just as easily be done with in-game events run by lore characters rather than identified day-to-day-as-employees devs. I'm all in favor of events that impact the world and provide content.

The information we are given in Empire is the same information FB gives everyone else on discord. So this concern over unfair gameplay is out of place and perhaps from a perspective trying to understand the unknown. Because from my perspective, this entire thread is targeting Ville for just being active in the Starbase community.

I appreciate that that is your perspective, but this thread is not about Ville, nor is it about Empire specifically other than using it in one example. This is about player-dev relationships more broadly, and about how information about game mechanics and upcoming changes has been and continues to be disseminated through the playerbase through, what I believe to be, improper and exclusive channels.

Our primary purpose in CA is to help developers to make a better game for all of us! It is not a function of a competitions like PvP tournaments to prove who is better and who is not!

Cultural change takes time. Early Access (i.e. the "real game") is officially slated to release in less than 90 days. I'm bringing this up now because because I don't think it's as easy as flipping a switch on the eve of EA launch.

 

[FatFly]

I thought this thread had run its course, but I'll reiterate and clarify some of my points here:
Nowhere am I saying that developers are the best ship designers, or that some advantage comes from that quality. The potential advantage comes from
(a) intimate knowledge of game mechanics that are otherwise not fully exposed to players, but that could be shared with them in exclusive conversation,
(b) advance knowledge of upcoming changes to relevant mechanics that could aid in "future-proofing" designs and the pipelines to create them, and (c) the potential to alter the rules of the game in favor of one group or another asking for such changes. The fact that some of this information has been shared so far is helpful, but that is optional, and other information could just as easily be withheld.

"Potential advantage"? "Intimate knowledge"? "Advance Knowledge"? "...the potential to alter the rules of the game in favor of one group or another..."?

Seriously mate? There is nothing in this game or any other where a developer can share a secret that is so powerful that the knowledge received, after the secret is shared, is so OP that one faction can rise above other factions in any way! The only and THE only way to have an advantage as a Faction in MMO game is to have solid leadership, discipline and solid organization in a Faction so when you invite people, many of them respond!


The only way I can comprehend your critic is if your point is: Developers should not play the game with players nor communicate with players?
I think you miss the point of being a player in CA!

Honestly mate, it is very rare that devs are communicating with players at all! Starbase devs are determined to make the game better, not to collect all ore in the belt before players get there. I really can't figure out what is your aim here! Can you state at least one actual fact where Empire and Kingdom had any kind of unfair advantage over any other faction based on "illegal" developers activity? This really starts to look like a witch hunt!