Incorporating an in-game Ship design element into the real-time MMO, and abolishing a separate Creative mode

[Kimsemus]

I did actually, and the argument against removing sandbox mode seemed to boil down to people thinking the only upside would be that they'd be immersion-building window dressing for a minority of players.

If you read Recatek's and I's posts you would know this is not the case at all.

 

[Jetthetank]

That is a good point, this being a single thread about one aspect started giving me tunnel vision about what this game is.
In response to vexus' post, that is.

 

[Bigsby]

If you read Recatek's and I's posts you would know this is not the case at all.

I read your posts and the argument that people will necessarily develop their own offline tools doesn't mean the developers should just do it themselves. I totally agree with the path of least resistance theory of player behavior, and there are plenty of things that players will do that developers still shouldn't encourage, incentivize or enable.

 

[CalenLoki]

@Kimsemus and @Recatek have valid points and it really comes down to what kind of game this wants to be. If the game wants to be a creative-mode ship designer like SE and so many other games, it can do that. That's kind of the default at this point. Pretty much all comparable games offer these kinds of individual servers with creative mode and they don't focus on the MMO component. Rarely does a game come along that can give a single shared world. Starbase seems to have the technical capacity and the desire to become an MMO, and has labeled their game as such. They didn't just think "multiplayer servers" - they thought bigger than that. So instead of thinking what features you'd want personally, what is best to achieve success for that implied goal?

Even larger MMOs like WoW and ESO and GW2 and so on have big servers, which are clumps of smaller servers that handle a fairly large volume of players each. How they achieve coalescence into a single shared game world experience is by having all players experience the same content across all those servers aka "Theme Park MMOs". People on two different servers can beat the same raid boss and discuss with each other how great the fight was.

Starbase and the like are different for sure. There's an element of ship design and building. But this is not the main game, it's a subset of potential options due to the tools provided. The entire game can be played without a single ship. It can be all station building and floating around to acquire resources, and combat could be FPS shooter-PvP taking objectives on a station. The game is not "build your dream ship and fly around" - although this is possible, that isn't the entirety of the game. Starbase comes across more like Minecraft-in-Space. Do what you want. Build whatever you want. The history of the game and what it is will be defined more by the player actions with the tools they are provided than by any set intended feature. For all we know, ship building could be completely automated at some point, and no one spends time building new ship designs because there's more interesting and important gameplay going on.

Like it or not, by being an MMO, you are window dressing decorations by others, by design. That's part of the MMO experience, like seeing some fully geared guy in any MMO. That's something you as a player cannot control. You are an integral part of the product. The real difference is that such a thing can matter. You will build a nice looking ship not only for yourself but for the reaction you get from others.

You could make the argument that leveling up in any traditional MMO should be done offline. After all, it allows you to level up on your own time, without interacting with other players. And 5-man dungeons? They should be made to be 1-man dungeons when you're offline. But this misses the whole point of the MMO experience, which is that you are around other players. That's the entire success of MMOs. No one is playing WoW to solo the 40-man raid. They want to do it because there's 39 other people there, with them, accomplishing something that matters.

To be honest, I'd probably play WoW if it had no leveling (grinding) at all. Just for the fun part (i.e. raids). Comparing ship design to raid is pointless as well. No matter how complex ship is, designing it can be done by single person. And it will most likely take less work hours when done solo. Which mean more hours to actually use the ship, together with friends that are needed to operate it.

And again. Instanced ship designer doesn't differ much from closed safezone hangar in terms of player interaction. At all.

 

[Vexus]

And again. Instanced ship designer doesn't differ much from closed safezone hangar in terms of player interaction. At all.

That's the point I'm trying to argue against; I think it adds immense amounts of player interaction. I played Star Wars Galaxies, and some player building their house in the middle of nowhere ended up being a place to visit, because maybe they eventually sold good player crafted weapons. In other words, a small event no matter how seemingly insignificant impacts many other players. Your ship design in the live world could inspire the best fighter ship for your faction by someone else. Likewise, you just walking to your building area might witness something that inspires you to create something unique and impactful. Most of the time, these small things are glossed over, and I too would gloss over their value if, for example, Starbase had infinite-resources. Then it doesn't matter. But each voxel mined is going to matter in Starbase, with no respawning of resources, no endless AI ships to farm ISK from; even if only a tiny bit of the effect matters. And yes you doing ship design in some random hangar might matter to me, on the other side of the game world, in a few months time.

We can be certain; if left to our own devices in an offline world, we never have the chance for those small interactions to add up to something greater.

 

[YakkoForever]

I think if you're extrapolating on a minor example, you're glossing over the overall point. What I describe is "best case" scenario.

so your point is that my example was bad? no it was not. it was a clear example of a error someone might make. there is no loss when building, you can just recycle everything.

This is not EVE. the parts are not useless they can be reused. yes, while combat testing a ship you might lose the ship but how are going to do that in sandbox anyway?

VE has had Offline Fitting Tools for 15+ years because it's way easier than trying to find the modules and hulls you need in game and wasting tons of time/ISK/effort theorycrafting and moving resources. This doesn't detract from interaction at all -- it simply streamlines an arduous and necessary task.

Yes, you can spreadsheet EVE out and crunch a bunch of numbers and it can tell out how tough a ship is and how much damage it does. Can I spreasheet out the collision of two ships in starbase?

PoE another number crunching game has Path of Buildign where I can figure out what my endgame DPS will be, what my end game Life will be but it can never give me an accurate representation of how the character will actually feel to play in the endgame.

Starbase is complex enough where you would essentially have to rebuild the game to be able to make a program that would act as a Sandbox.

Again, other players are there to be creative and have fun and design cool things. They aren't there to be window dressing decorations for your gameplay atmosphere. If another player leaves the world temporarily to work on a ship design, that's their prerogative, and if that saves them time then they can later spend more time in the game world later doing more interesting things. Shuffling parts around in a safe zone lot that nobody can even even see due to lot instancing doesn't exactly strike me as peak MMO gameplay to begin with, nor particularly interesting to watch (if you even could). It's all the same if they walked away from the screen to grab a cup of tea and sketch out designs in their notebook. Get the game out of the way and let people be creative, then go back to the game and economy part when it comes to doing meaningful things with that ship in the world.

I see your point about want to build and create freely I have a great time in Singleplayer sandbox games creating freely. if you have played besieged you probably no the importance of limits. if there was no build box would the levels be fun? sometimes dealing with limited resources is a ton of fun. creativity is not stymied by limits, it is enhanced by them.




One thing I fail to understand is why exiling every ship and factory builder, designer, or scientist to an offline sandbox has such an appeal. if the sandbox mode is the most efficient these players will essentially be forced to play in that sandbox mode. Some people like to play online. Should we force those players to play offline at the detriment of their play experience? They came here to play an MMO not a single player sandbox game.

As much as you can say why force people online, I can say why force people offline?

 

[Atreties]

As much as you can say why force people online, I can say why force people offline?

Before anyone says "no one would be forcing anyone to use the sandbox" - Yes, yes it would.

In any game involving any type of competition, there is a phenomenon where, when a "best method" of doing something exists and is significantly better than other methods, those that play for that competition, invariably feel forced to use that best method. If you used any other, youre making yourself fall behind, and that is not acceptable.

This is well documented and game devs frequently cite this issue when balancing things in games.

 

[TinMan]

Well, I'm glad a LOT of you guys already decided that everyone else needs to play the game the way you see fit. I play single player games or Co-op games only with my friends. I have no idea why you PvP'ers are out for us PvE'ers. I LOVE the PvE aspect of games & I do not like to interact with random people I don't know. That's because I've played "online" games since dialup was being used. I do NOT want to have to worry about people messing with me just because they can, and it happens E V E R Y W H E R E.

I designed buildings for a living and I dealt with CAD a whole lot, so I REALLY REALLY liked the idea of having such a detailed building game that wasn't all primarily blocks (Space Engineers, Empyrion, etc) and that was built more like a real vehicle or building.

The single player aspect of a game has 0 effect on the online part of it, but you can believe that if it makes you feel better. It appears you guys may have talked the Devs into removing the original 'single player/sandbox' feature of this game that I was ready to buy. So many times I've seen gaming communities ruin things for everyone else. Doesn't look like I'll be buying it now.

 

[Bloodydavyflint]

This is starting to get good!

 

[Bloodydavyflint]

Well, I'm glad a LOT of you guys already decided that everyone else needs to play the game the way you see fit. I play single player games or Co-op games only with my friends. I have no idea why you PvP'ers are out for us PvE'ers. I LOVE the PvE aspect of games & I do not like to interact with random people I don't know. That's because I've played "online" games since dialup was being used. I do NOT want to have to worry about people messing with me just because they can, and it happens E V E R Y W H E R E.

I designed buildings for a living and I dealt with CAD a whole lot, so I REALLY REALLY liked the idea of having such a detailed building game that wasn't all primarily blocks (Space Engineers, Empyrion, etc) and that was built more like a real vehicle or building.

The single player aspect of a game has 0 effect on the online part of it, but you can believe that if it makes you feel better. It appears you guys may have talked the Devs into removing the original 'single player/sandbox' feature of this game that I was ready to buy. So many times I've seen gaming communities ruin things for everyone else. Doesn't look like I'll be buying it now.

Sweet. It looks like this game just isn’t for you. Sorry you can’t be accommodated. I’m sure one day you’ll find a new home.

 

[Azelous]

I actually like Starmade's Shipyard for the creation of blueprints, and how it put sandbox mode into the live game. The main difference between Starmade's implementation and what I hope to be Starbase's is that they already had creative mode, and there's generally no reason to be near other players in Starmade when blueprinting at a shipyard.

 

[Bigsby]

So many times I've seen gaming communities ruin things for everyone else. Doesn't look like I'll be buying it now.

Are you complaining about the people who play a game ruining things for people who don't play the game?

 

[Vexus]

The single player aspect of a game has 0 effect on the online part of it

I think the point is, the devs are the ones deciding that everyone else needs to play the game the way they see fit. It's not anyone else in charge of that. And if that vision is an MMO, if the tech allows for large scale things to happen in a single game world, there are good points to be said about bringing all the single player activities you enjoy into the main game universe. Your argument is that you want the game your way or else you're mad and won't buy it. We're trying to consider the possibility of accommodating the same experience you want - to build and design things - while still having you completely safe in the live game world. In other words, even if you never leave the safe zone, you get to play in a sandbox, and fly around (but actually have things to see), and have events occurring all around you that might entice you to join into something bigger than a single player experience. I don't think the devs are making a CAD-designer for space ships; I think the intent is to make an MMO and bring in thousands of people into a shared game experience. My point is you, existing in the live world - with no one messing with you - but where others are potentially able to interact with you, and you them, it builds the MMO experience massively. If this were marketed as a single player game, I wouldn't buy it, and I don't think I'd demand they make it into something it's not.

I think if you have nearly the same environment of being able to design and test and experiment, but instead in a live game world where yes, you'd have to interact with others, you would enjoy it. If the MMO experience is not your thing, then we'll have to see what the devs choose for their game. The real core debate is this issue. A single player mode would appease a certain crowd, and at the same time draw lots of gameplay away from the main game, potentially devaluing the core experience/goal of the game. Or, it could draw in extra sales for people who just like a single player building experience.

There are a lot of games that offer a single player building experience. Lots of flight simulators and space simulators. There's very few options for the unified game world MMO, and a lot of us have seen the 'why' in terms of why other offerings either succeeded or failed. Almost all the successful MMOs are ones that put players in the same game world and have no offline single player component. While lots of other successful, non-MMO games, offer that offline single player component. The core issue will be decided by the devs in what they want their game to be. It's not on us. Make your case if you see it working some other way.

 

[Azelous]

Well, I'm glad a LOT of you guys already decided that everyone else needs to play the game the way you see fit. I play single player games or Co-op games only with my friends. I have no idea why you PvP'ers are out for us PvE'ers. I LOVE the PvE aspect of games & I do not like to interact with random people I don't know. That's because I've played "online" games since dialup was being used. I do NOT want to have to worry about people messing with me just because they can, and it happens E V E R Y W H E R E.

It appears you guys may have talked the Devs into removing the original 'single player/sandbox' feature of this game that I was ready to buy. So many times I've seen gaming communities ruin things for everyone else. Doesn't look like I'll be buying it now.

If you're worried about other players you don't know, I can't say an MMO that forces player interaction is a good start (as apposed to say Warframe that has single player modes). However, if you can look past the whole "random people" to achieve a safe PvE experience, I bet you can play to your heart's content within one of the larger player factions.

Now, to your closing paragraph:

1. We haven't convinced the Devs into anything, there hasn't been an official announcement anywhere. This is a forum to discuss people's thoughts on the matter.
2. You must have very specific expectations of the game if you think it can be ruined by removing solo offline creative mode.
3. It's a pity you hinged your enjoyment of a multifaceted game on a specific game element that you think is not going to be implemented to your liking.

 

[Brutus]

I LOVE the PvE aspect of games & I do not like to interact with random people I don't know. That's because I've played "online" games since dialup was being used. I do NOT want to have to worry about people messing with me just because they can, and it happens E V E R Y W H E R E.

It seems to me that the massively multiplayer online video game genre is not for you.

 

[NoName]

so your point is that my example was bad? no it was not. it was a clear example of a error someone might make. there is no loss when building, you can just recycle everything.

This is not EVE. the parts are not useless they can be reused. yes, while combat testing a ship you might lose the ship but how are going to do that in sandbox anyway?



Yes, you can spreadsheet EVE out and crunch a bunch of numbers and it can tell out how tough a ship is and how much damage it does. Can I spreasheet out the collision of two ships in starbase?

PoE another number crunching game has Path of Buildign where I can figure out what my endgame DPS will be, what my end game Life will be but it can never give me an accurate representation of how the character will actually feel to play in the endgame.

Starbase is complex enough where you would essentially have to rebuild the game to be able to make a program that would act as a Sandbox.



I see your point about want to build and create freely I have a great time in Singleplayer sandbox games creating freely. if you have played besieged you probably no the importance of limits. if there was no build box would the levels be fun? sometimes dealing with limited resources is a ton of fun. creativity is not stymied by limits, it is enhanced by them.




One thing I fail to understand is why exiling every ship and factory builder, designer, or scientist to an offline sandbox has such an appeal. if the sandbox mode is the most efficient these players will essentially be forced to play in that sandbox mode. Some people like to play online. Should we force those players to play offline at the detriment of their play experience? They came here to play an MMO not a single player sandbox game.

As much as you can say why force people online, I can say why force people offline?

They took away my like button but this is a really well thought out and well spoken thought! Kudos.

P.S. I wasn't planning on replying to this thread cause it seems like a cluster truck but just wanted to let you know this is a very good reply keep it up!

 

[Vloshko]

Vloshko likes a lot of this.

I don't really have anything to add other than saying: most of you I played WA with have it spot on.

 

[Jetthetank]

Reiterating on what I said earlier I see two possible scenarios that people are concerned with, one with a seperate sandbox mode, and one without a sandbox mode and having an integrated shipbuilder.

Possible plus'es and negatives:

With singleplayer (maybe MP?) sandbox mode:
- Ease of unlimited freedom to do what ever you want in an empty instance as far as ship design goes.
- No one there to watch you or spy on you, wont have to worry about other people's influence.
- We honestly don't know the limits or boundaries of what the devs actually have/had planned for this mode, ( it could be a CAD -esque 3D modeller for all we know, purely for just designing your ship, without actually being able to fly around and spawn a bunch of ships to shoot at.)
- Ability to possibly just import designs right into the game to build from via your account with complete security of your designs.
- removes you from the game when you may be needed at a critical time for defense is you get spontaneously attacked.

With Integrated shipbuilder (of which I am personally envisioning, because there currently isnt one to my knowledge):
- Realtime gameplay as you develop your designs in the game world
- Active ability to play as the role of a shipbuilder within the living universe
- Creates an entire host of gameplay elements/interactions directly into the game via the aforementioned point^
- Removes limitations of gameplay with friends as you can just all walk over to your ship builder, instead of leaving the game for 1+ hrs to design a ship.
- gives the ability to be ingame while designing ships, which also benefits you if you are able to defend your station while there: awareness.
- Not forcing players to be in a partcular environment, or limiting, or constricting players...yet. (this feature isnt implemented, and may not be, but that is the beauty of it, it is an open slate to make it work in a way that is enjoyable to the entire playerbase, and should be, because I believe most players will be spending alot of time with this feature building ships.)
- Literally anything good, because it can be added in before it gets designed.

I have missed alot of points, but it touches on some of the points discussed.

 

[Recatek]

I'm not terribly sympathetic to the notion that having an offline mode obligates you to use it. You still would need to build your actual ship online regardless. Even then, if the sandbox itself is co-op (as the devs have stated), is it that so terrible an imposition to simply switch over, with your friends, to experimentation/sandbox mode and continue working on things together? Sounds like the exact same experience to me, just faster and without barriers to trial and error. It's strange to me that you who would want optimal ships would want to make the process of testing and experimenting take an order of magnitude more time to figure out.

 

[Kimsemus]

I'm not terribly sympathetic to the notion that having an offline mode obligates you to use it. You still would need to build your actual ship online regardless. Even then, if the sandbox itself is co-op (as the devs have stated), is it that so terrible an imposition to simply switch over, with your friends, to experimentation/sandbox mode and continue working on things together? Sounds like the exact same experience to me, just faster and without barriers to trial and error. It's strange to me that you who would want optimal ships would want to make the process of testing and experimenting take an order of magnitude more time to figure out.

This. If people don't want to sandbox, either in a freeform way in a shipyard on the server or in a sandbox out of a sense of purism, they don't have to. Other people can and should. Compounding the hours and hours spent trying to develop workable blueprints in game where everything is a resource sink sounds awful. It actually stifles creativity and innovation in a tremendous way.

There is no real world equivalent either -- people spend tons of time when engineering something simulating, testing, and designing before they begin constructing. That's just simple efficiency and process control. To advocate otherwise in Starbase is just baffling to me, and I don't know why, especially people from WA, want to not have some kind of sandbox/blueprint mode compared to doing everything live, which is awful all around.

To the people saying it's going to kill interaction: no it won't. Not in any way. Especially when most people will be building in their shipyards anyway so you wouldn't see them regardless when most of the game retreats to sov space.

@TinMan who posted above -- I don't know why you're basing whether you're going to buy the game or not on a discussion among players on a single feature. Just relax, game isn't even out yet.