Lock YOLOL?

[NshowZ]

It seems like we have lots of thread about secured BP. Then I would like to raise a similar issue.

Is locking YOLOL chip necessary?
I think YES

I think this protection should be seperated from secured BP. YOLOL chips can be locked even the ship already sold. Like IRL car, customer can change tires but tuning under the hood has some restrictions.


Securing BP to prevent stealing, then why not securing YOLOL chip as well? BP is only accessible on SSC but YOLOL is accessible throughout whole flights!

 

[Agonarch]

I think I understand the idea, so long as a user could replace the chip (duplicate it, locked) then I think that could work.

The issue is as I see it if you don't have a blueprint, just the ship, you can use the ship fine - but that YOLOL chip might be essential for the ship to work depending on what it's set up to do. If you take damage and loose it, that's a big deal (while the blueprint is only for making the ship in the first place, not required for the operation of the ship at all).

 

[YellowDucky]

This is a bad idea, because the whole point is pirates can not only steal the chips but steal code itself from ships. At the least you should be able to build machines to hack them if they are protected. Yet again, most yololers I’ve met did a lot for free and I paid them extra for helping so many people for free.

 

[Dscript]

This is absolutely necessary

You need to separate the idea of "ship code" from "yolol projects"

Buying a ship with locked yolol code is risky, just dont buy it.. unless you trust the seller to provide support for lost chip and upgrades... or if the locked code is so rare and valuable it's worth the risk.

Without locked yolol chip (not able to duplicate) guys like me will never release our works to the public, for sale or giveaway

I'm making a bunch of games.. blackjack, poker, etc...

They require at least 20 to 100 hours of dev time each

Now I do this because I find it fun.. I dont need to make credits off it.. I'm happy to sit in the ssc and never print anything.. for me the game is the programming and logic challenge.. I "win" by succeeding in creating a working system

But many others will just never build these types of projects. Why bother.. you cant sell a yolol system, anyone can copy the code, and the time investment is very large.. not many people enjoy it for the pure puzzle as I do.

And even if it can only be duplicated as a locked chip not code copied anyone can still make as many copies as they want by removing the chip then using repair. Perhaps lock settings "locked but can be replace via bp repair tool" and "locked, cannot be reproduced by any means"

Dont get me wrong, I will keep building these systems, i love it, it's fun for me...

But they will only exist in the ssc.. it's either a private puzzle game for myself.. or it's a way to participate in the economy..

You will never see the full potential of starbase yolol systems without the option to protect code.

 

[Dscript]

This is a bad idea, because the whole point is pirates can not only steal the chips but steal code itself from ships. At the least you should be able to build machines to hack them if they are protected. Yet again, most yololers I’ve met did a lot for free and I paid them extra for helping so many people for free.

While I do support the idea of pirating being an essential component of gameplay

You should not think of yolol as "software"

These are chips, analogous to ICs

The restriction on lines of code and line length
The way you code them
The way they need to be assembled into complex systems with chips dedicated to specialized functions and queued/chained

Yolol is less like software
It's more like hardware

An IC chip is ridiculously hard to copy
Knockoff ICs are usually made by just designing a chip with identical functionality

In real life, if you captured an enemy vehicle, you would reverse engineer a chip by simply determining functionality.. it's a tiresome process, but you would figure out what it is doing, then copy that IDEA..

In yolol terms, capturing an enemy ship with locked yolol, you could through the U tool watch its IO while operating it and then steal the IDEA by designing your own code to do the same thing

 

[YellowDucky]

While I do support the idea of pirating being an essential component of gameplay

You should not think of yolol as "software"

These are chips, analogous to ICs

The restriction on lines of code and line length
The way you code them
The way they need to be assembled into complex systems with chips dedicated to specialized functions and queued/chained

Yolol is less like software
It's more like hardware

An IC chip is ridiculously hard to copy
Knockoff ICs are usually made by just designing a chip with identical functionality

In real life, if you captured an enemy vehicle, you would reverse engineer a chip by simply determining functionality.. it's a tiresome process, but you would figure out what it is doing, then copy that IDEA..

In yolol terms, capturing an enemy ship with locked yolol, you could through the U tool watch its IO while operating it and then steal the IDEA by designing your own code to do the same thing[/QUOTE
i like the idea of a data running ship, machines on bored that you can take pirated/salvaged yolol and use the machine to “hack” it open

 

[ZakaryX]

I'm all for locked YOLOL. Nobody could check for code that turns on their transponder instead of turning it off. Plus you would never feel the need to give any credit to whoever you stole code from. win/win
I can see it now

"WTS upgraded new and improved ISAN CHIP"
-"can I look at the code?"
"no"
Easy money

 

[Dscript]

i like the idea of a data running ship, machines on bored that you can take pirated/salvaged yolol and use the machine to “hack” it open

Such machines would completely negate the protection value.

Remember.. we already have rule 14

14) You may not publish, make available, promote, or otherwise disseminate any blueprint, YOLOL code, or other in-game user-generated materials, documentation, or information without the express permission of the original author.

We just need an in game way of enforcing it

So I mean technically this rule doesnt explicitly prevent you from using stolen code yourself

But it does imply you CANNOT take code from a pirated ship and give it to anyone else, sell it,
or put it in ships you sell, etc...

The same way you wont get a "machine" that can hack a ship and extract its blueprint

With a game like this you WANT a good base of people developing code and engaging in creative development..

Without protection, that means a coding has basically zero economic value. So why would anyone bother

To be a service man installing code.. hell no.. any real coder wants to develop something once and sell copies... but without locked yolol option it's an economic waste of time

Pirates dont NEED yolol theft.. and selling stolen code is against the TOS

If yolol is unprotected then pure code has virtually no value.. so almost no value to pirates anyways

A player who wants to focus on rnd of yolol systems REQUIRES code protection.. or they have no reason to bother

 

[Dscript]

I'm all for locked YOLOL. Nobody could check for code that turns on their transponder instead of turning it off. Plus you would never feel the need to give any credit to whoever you stole code from. win/win
I can see it now

"WTS upgraded new and improved ISAN CHIP"
-"can I look at the code?"
"no"
Easy money

Buyer beware

Anyone able to check for transponder control code in yolol, can easily decide "my transponder button will be named the same as my transponder variable" so I can always see its status on my control panel.. or use a non standard name for their transponder variable....

There is no edge case where someone could have checked the code but had no other method of noticing such a scam

There is no reason to EVER give credit.. you can always just steal the algorithm, and write it differently.

As it stands I can steal anyone's code.. take the cool algorithm they came up with and use it with my own formatting.. no possible way to know I stole it.. because these algorithms are not new.. all code is recycled algorithms from long ago.. it's not the exact source code that is valuable.. it's the knowledge and creativity of knowing and deciding which algorithms to use in what way..

Locking a chip means you cant just copy code.. you have to figure it out.. you could try to reverse engineer by watching how it works.. then trying to figure out exactly how it is doing it.. but being able to just copy it takes all economic value away from coding

You are taking about scam behaviour

And even with code exposed, I could just modify isan code to look different superficially and it's no different than a locked a chip, most people couldnt tell if I improved it or not

These scams would only work on noobs.. so not much potential profit and scamming is prohibited behaviour as I understand.. doing so would get you banned

And spyware, malware is a thing in the real world.. in wars it might be interesting to see how that could play out with espionage

 

[Dscript]

In short..

Arguments against yolol locking

Scamming
-this is banable behaviour

Sabatoge
-you can do this by putting hidden flaws in a ship design too. Plus allowing locking would NOT mean everything is locked.. worried? Then dont buy locked chips

Pirates want to steal code
- this is already banned by rule 14, so you are not allowed to do it anyways

No need to give credit
-there never was.. open source code is constantly ripped off without giving credit.. just swap variable names and shuffle logic a bit, boom, you can pass it off as your own

Repair issues
-if you buy a ship and you loose it.. you dont get a new one for free.. why should protected yolol chips be any different... it would mean that a ship with protected yolol chips would be devalued simply due to repair complications, but the devaluation solves the problem.

Programmers deserve the same ability to sell protected copies that ship designers get.. it's as simple as that

Rule 14 is not enough.. we need the option to lock chips otherwise our code will get ripped off and enforcing rule 14 is almost impossible

I dont want to just protect the exact text file, I want to protect my ideas from being copied by someone who could not have created it themself or copied in tiny fraction of the time it took me develop test optimize and debug it

Frozenbyte could not prevent someone from developing a knockoff game if it was created from scratch

But they sure as hell would sue anyone who used their source code to do it

Just as copying a ship design is fine if you build your own from scratch. but extracting their bp is bannable...

Why.. because we need specialization... and in the current state.. no one in their right mind would specialize in coding alone in this economy, only as a compliment to their ship design business

 

[YellowDucky]

Such machines would completely negate the protection value.

Remember.. we already have rule 14

14) You may not publish, make available, promote, or otherwise disseminate any blueprint, YOLOL code, or other in-game user-generated materials, documentation, or information without the express permission of the original author.

We just need an in game way of enforcing it

So I mean technically this rule doesnt explicitly prevent you from using stolen code yourself

But it does imply you CANNOT take code from a pirated ship and give it to anyone else, sell it,
or put it in ships you sell, etc...

The same way you wont get a "machine" that can hack a ship and extract its blueprint

With a game like this you WANT a good base of people developing code and engaging in creative development..

Without protection, that means a coding has basically zero economic value. So why would anyone bother

To be a service man installing code.. hell no.. any real coder wants to develop something once and sell copies... but without locked yolol option it's an economic waste of time

Pirates dont NEED yolol theft.. and selling stolen code is against the TOS

If yolol is unprotected then pure code has virtually no value.. so almost no value to pirates anyways

A player who wants to focus on rnd of yolol systems REQUIRES code protection.. or they have no reason to bother

But The thing is, you need to know how a script works to repair your ship. I can take a ship i buy and fully modify it, i should be able to do the same to YOLOL

 

[alioth]

Would be cool if there was a YOLOL complier so you could insert a YOLOL card and copy it onto a blank looking chip like a memory card- a “compiled” YOLOL chip which would then be closed source and protected.

 

[Dscript]

But The thing is, you need to know how a script works to repair your ship. I can take a ship i buy and fully modify it, i should be able to do the same to YOLOL

The fact that yolol code can be copied means it needs to be handled differently than ship bp

Why do people keep saying stuff like this.. if you want access to all your chips.. then dont buy locked yolol.. easy fix..

no one would be forcing you to buy locked yolol chips..

There are 2 choices..

ability to lock yolol code - developing chips and systems has economic value

No ability to lock code - developing systems has no economic value

Are you seriously saying that the ability for a yolol programmer to sell and profit from their work should be completely sacrificed so that you never have to decide to not buy something because you dont want locked yolol

 

[Dscript]

Would be cool if there was a YOLOL complier so you could insert a YOLOL card and copy it onto a blank looking chip like a memory card- a “compiled” YOLOL chip which would then be closed source and protected.

This would be cool..

Although I personally would still want to be able to flip a setting on chips in the ssc so I can design my system.. then lock it.. and sell the bp

 

[Haladin]

This is basically real world open source vs closed source software discussion. If my avatar doesn't give it away, I'm a fan of open source . I'd much prefer yolol code stay open.

• Complex multichip systems built into a ship would already take a lot of effort to duplicate (once BPs are protected), even if the yolol that makes them work is available. If someone sees a way to improve or reuse another's design, and goes through the effort to build the rest of it, and reuses/adapts existing code to drive it.. either they end up with a better product, and deserve some market share for their ideas and effort, or they don't and it shouldn't matter.
• Open code prompts interesting gameplay. Espionage - Sneaking onto a ship with a complex weapons system to figure out how it works and close the gap on an enemy's tech advantage. Counter espionage - designing to make that difficult by spreading out/hiding/building secure *structures* around the chips and obfuscating the critical code; being careful to not let ships fall into enemy hands.
• Locked chips take significant power away from the buyer of a system. Today we have huge power to modify any ship we fly. Walling off some of the code can crush important aspects of that. As others have mentioned, how do I modify/reuse/integrate new systems with the closed one without the ability to inspect or manipulate it directly?
• Open systems promote community creativity. If I can see *how* someone else did something, I'm more likely to try to *build on it*, to optimize, extend or enhance it. If my improvements follow the same rules - that everyone has the same opportunity to see and build upon mine, then together we've advanced the state if the art.

 

[Dscript]

This is basically real world open source vs closed source software discussion. If my avatar doesn't give it away, I'm a fan of open source . I'd much prefer yolol code stay open.

• Complex multichip systems built into a ship would already take a lot of effort to duplicate (once BPs are protected), even if the yolol that makes them work is available. If someone sees a way to improve or reuse another's design, and goes through the effort to build the rest of it, and reuses/adapts existing code to drive it.. either they end up with a better product, and deserve some market share for their ideas and effort, or they don't and it shouldn't matter.
• Open code prompts interesting gameplay. Espionage - Sneaking onto a ship with a complex weapons system to figure out how it works and close the gap on an enemy's tech advantage. Counter espionage - designing to make that difficult by spreading out/hiding/building secure *structures* around the chips and obfuscating the critical code; being careful to not let ships fall into enemy hands.
• Locked chips take significant power away from the buyer of a system. Today we have huge power to modify any ship we fly. Walling off some of the code can crush important aspects of that. As others have mentioned, how do I modify/reuse/integrate new systems with the closed one without the ability to inspect or manipulate it directly?
• Open systems promote community creativity. If I can see *how* someone else did something, I'm more likely to try to *build on it*, to optimize, extend or enhance it. If my improvements follow the same rules - that everyone has the same opportunity to see and build upon mine, then together we've advanced the state if the art.

Why is his work designing a ship protected IP with market value.. but my 100 hours of investment (so far) building a texas holdem poker table no economic value?

Ability to lock yolol is not the same as all yolol is locked..

Locked chips will devalue a ship.. sellers will leave yolol unlocked and promote it as open source to increase the ships sell value

There will still be plenty of unlocked chips and fully unlocked ships

I'm a unix coder myself and love open source and contribute

The fact that an open source community exists in the real world, where closed source is an option is as well is proof that they are not mutually exclusive

If there was no closed source option in real life there would be LESS not more...


Here we sit playing and loving starbase, a game that is closed source.. a game based on brutal economic competition and war.. yet you seem to be implying the lofty ideals of an open source utopia in a game that is meant to be driven by greed and dominated by force

And here is a simple question

In order to ensure you always have access to yolol.... should someone who specializes in coding and system design have no way to sell their product?

Should programming have zero economic value just so you never have to say "I want to buy that cool thing you made.. but you locked the yolol.. and I dont like that.. I want you make it copiable by everyone just so I can modify it and copy it"

Cause my response would be "I would rather not sell it then, what's the point of my yolol code getting ripped off and put into ship BP that others sell as copies with full copyright protection. Why is his ship BP protected marketable IP but my yolol code is treated like gargabe"

 

[Dscript]

Can everyone please stop equating "Abilty to lock yolol" with "all yolol is locked"

The market will prefer buying unlocked yolol..
so the ship price will be devalued if yolol is locked

Ship sellers will only lock something if the value of a custom script is worth protecting so much that it outweighs the sell price devaluation

When you argue about ability to lock yolol conflicting with ability to modify and repair ships

What you are actually saying is

"Coders should not be able to protect their work.. no matter how new or creative, or how much work it was because I demand access to all code by everyone.. no one should be allowed to protect their code from me"

 

[YellowDucky]

The fact that yolol code can be copied means it needs to be handled differently than ship bp

Why do people keep saying stuff like this.. if you want access to all your chips.. then dont buy locked yolol.. easy fix..

no one would be forcing you to buy locked yolol chips..

There are 2 choices..

ability to lock yolol code - developing chips and systems has economic value

No ability to lock code - developing systems has no economic value

Are you seriously saying that the ability for a yolol programmer to sell and profit from their work should be completely sacrificed so that you never have to decide to not buy something because you dont want locked yolol

I pay yolol coders all the time, i higher them to make certain functions on my ship. YOLOL is not like a ship where you sell it, you make profit through labor with yolol

 

[Dscript]

I pay yolol coders all the time, i higher them to make certain functions on my ship. YOLOL is not like a ship where you sell it, you make profit through labor with yolol

First you say
"pirates need to be able to steal yolol"
Which is against the rule anyways

Next you say right to repair
Which I show is a false equivalency argument

Now you say "yolol is a service, not a product"

Seriously.. that is getting dumb

Yolol is just a service.. are you kidding me

Fine, let's do the same to ship design

No bp protection.. any ship you own you also get the bp, and you can edit and copy it, even you got via pirating

Ship design as a service.. no protection on your designs.. ships design is just labor

And let's just make it so I can just click on any ship I see and an option pops up "copy ship bp".. just like yolol

See what happens to the ship design community

 

[YellowDucky]

First you say
"pirates need to be able to steal yolol"
Which is against the rule anyways

Next you say right to repair
Which I show is a false equivalency argument

Now you say "yolol is a service, not a product"

Seriously.. that is getting dumb

Yolol is just a service.. are you kidding me

Fine, let's do the same to ship design

No bp protection.. any ship you own you also get the bp, and you can edit and copy it, even you got via pirating

Ship design as a service.. no protection on your designs.. ships design is just labor

And let's just make it so I can just click on any ship I see and an option pops up "copy ship bp".. just like yolol

See what happens to the ship design community

Yes, when you buy a ship, you can’t modify it in the designer, but you can fully modify it by hand with hand tools, so yes, my argument still stands.