PVE is already failing...

shado20

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May 16, 2020
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ok the SZ has a lot of rocks in it, hell i found a BIG one yesterday mining in the safe zone. :) there is no point in going out and getting slightly bigger rocks for you to shoot at me. or i half to travel a long way to mine to get the bigger ones. WE NEED WORKING STATIONS!!! if we had the ability to build a station what we can build out of, live out of , we would get the hell away from origin! the space bungalows we have now are crap!
you wanna fix the safe zone problem , we need a reason to leave, we do not have that now!
 

Vanidar

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Aug 23, 2021
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Instancing a single asteroid for a player doing that section of the tutorial, giving them a special transponder-style point to go to, is probably a better solution than just mass-spawning a bunch of asteroids that will immediately be harvested by efficient miners; the problem of new players not seeing asteroids will just come back again. There seems to be a lack of foresight when it comes to solving problems right now. Problems should be solved and not waved over with some random change that has not had its impact fully weighed. I would like to comment on the "PvP station" nonsense, as it's the same kind of hand-waving non-fix as mass-spawning asteroids, but that's not for here.

One big issue I see regarding balance is the most profitable stuff in bulk is contained in the safe zone - Charodium - and nowhere else close. It's a requirement for all the upgraded and PvP stuff, but is found with near unlimited, free, no-risk supply inside the safe zone. This doesn't make sense. It should be at least in Zone 2 outside the safe zone, so you have to risk your ship to get PvP-related or upgrade-related stuff. As it stands, Charodium in the safezone is the main reason people don't want to go out. You can make a large 1000-crate hauler and mass-obtain all the stuff you need to make your PvP ships. If players are buying Charodium from other players, and Charodium is the main ore driving PvP, it should only be found outside the safe zone. Basically, the ore used the most for PvP should never be inside a safezone. PvE players should be happy to grind 1000 crates of safe zone Bastium and sell them to the NPC vendor for 1k per stack; that is PvE. As soon as the ore is listed on the auction house, it becomes economic PvP. Right now, PvP is fueled by no-risk mining in the safezone. There's no reason to leave.

Regarding the main post about so much area to explore, but being unable to as a PvE player, because it's risky... this is where the devs need to take a stand. The mindset is that the OP is "deprived" of this area. It's fully accessible; the deprivation is only in their mind. Making the game easier for players who take no risks doesn't succeed. Nowhere was Starbase listed as a PvE game; it has massive guns, lots of focus on ship and first-person combat, everything can be exploded and destroyed and broken in a dozen different ways, the trailers and feature videos show hundreds of ships fighting each other -- the tech designed by the dev team is for player-vs-player conflict-- - but somehow there's an idea creeping around that PvE is failing when it doesn't exist as a core component of the game. Safe zones are necessary as a reality of gameplay, to avoid spawn-camping basically. Beyond that, it's ok to tell people yes, it will be risky to go out into the game world, and yes, you might lose your ship, and yes, you will be ok if you lose your ship, and yes, this means you should join a large group to gain some safety in the game world.

"If you want to be part of the big content, you need to be part of a big group." This succeeds.
"You can do anything in the game with no risk all by yourself." This fails.

Everything should be seen through a lens of how to bring people together. The tools for this, like company management, company ships, a group setting where group members can invite other people so it's not just the owner who might be offline, transponder "frequencies" so people can see each other without revealing their position to everyone, and so much more, should be the focus.

Thinking about the future of the game, is it the intent that all the warp gates and all the stations and all the interesting stuff be linked with safe zones and safe-zone-guarded experience of all these things? There will never be a need for tech that allows 100 ships to fly together if everything can be done more profitably solo inside a safe zone. It is far more interesting to see what length players will go to in order to secure their existence in the game world.
1000% agree on your take on Origin SZ being clearly abusable, charodium seeming to be a little too safe, the need for a line in the sand at some point in the universe where most areas beyond this point have the POSSIBILITY of danger and that can be okay, and the importance of encouraging player interaction.

Not sure I agree on the points where making large companies/groups a gate to content however. Plenty of people prefer to play in smaller companies. The game would be less interesting if it was balanced purely around who could slap their enemies around with a wallet or with a large roster rather than allowing design space for outplays or alternative strategies as long as everyone was still outside of SZs and risking things. That said, I think that small disagreement between us is unimportant and distracting, since I think the main message here is to encourage more dynamic player-driven environments that, as you eloquently put it, "is far more interesting [by seeing] what lengths players will go to in order to secure their existence in the game world". With the proliferation of safezones (and more flavors and quantity of them yet to come) and no strong reason to leave them, we don't have a reason to do exactly that, to be invested in an area of space that we feel attached to, to work with or compete against other people for something, i.e., to want to log on. 99.9% of the game can be played inside of a safe zone at all times, and there doesn't seem to be a drawback to that.

Getting back to the main idea of the post, I don't think "PvE" in SB is failing at all. In this context, I see "PvE" as less fighting AI or the environment, but the things like ship/station designing, mining, hauling, salvaging, even some of the racing ideas people have floating around. Players have sunk more time into mining and designing than any other activity in the game, and the next big update is *more* mining. I think it's easier to think of those activities in SB as risk-negative or risk-averse, whereas things like direct ship-to-ship combat and even mining/hauling outside of a SZ is more risk-positive or risk-keen. People fall on a bell curve on what their preferred risk tolerance is and I'd argue that the most supported section of that curve right now is the extreme end of that spectrum towards the 100% risk-averse crowd, and even moving forward into future that more extreme side of the bell curve seems to be the target of FB. In my opinion, the balancing of this curve requires somewhat of an asymmetrical approach and it is less about content and features and more about the environment itself -- safer and risk free supported by Origin, riskier and more profitable the further out you get. No one would be forced to take any risks, but reward should go up with risk as an incentive and not the other way around. Not all of the game should be protected by a safe zone or have a safe zone option. It's not just that risk-keen people don't want others to be able to essentially camp safezones 24/7, it's more important that they themselves don't want to feel more or less forced to live in one and abuse it just to keep up with everyone else.
 
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Sep 3, 2021
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Hi FB,

I think the desire to support PVE gameplay is already failing. Reasons:
1) I know there are plenty of asteroids in the Origin SZ area, but most of them are tiny. The bigger ones that players are interested in are going quickly. It's getting that you have to fly further to find them each time. Often you will spot one but when it comes out of low LoD it vanishes. It will only take a week or two more before there's no C9s in the Origin SZ (at least in a 40k radius sphere).
2) There's not enough SZ. Getting from the moon warp gate to anywhere useful seems to take you out of SZ. It seems a shame to deprive PVE players of so much area. I know we need flash points to drive conflict, but I feel the balance is swinging too far towards PvP and forcing it to an extent. Some of us just want to explore and build, without having to fight.

I hope you will keep a balance and a place for PvE gameplay in SB that is not just relegated to boring mining of scraps around the origins.

Cheers,
Mut.

Are you trolling, man??? :D

There is no way to catch someone outside safe zone. Even if so, the chances are so low. For now, PVP is only available at the gates, because that's the single point to travel. (Oh thanks, we have at least single point where pvp is not dead yet)

But there is no reason to travel through the gate, if you want a pve life. You can mine outside SZ on the planet belt and buy all resources you need. Overall, you can travel through the gate when there is none players. Even you lost ship, you will get enough profit from successful travels to cover such obstacles.

Oh man, I can't believe that those thoughts can exist in this world... oh man.
 
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You can mine outside SZ on the planet belt and buy all resources you need.
Well no you can't do that if everyone is doing that. If you are buying non-SZ(or moon) mats off the market, then there is a player going out of the safezone to get them and put them on the market.
 

J.D.

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Well no you can't do that if everyone is doing that. If you are buying non-SZ(or moon) mats off the market, then there is a player going out of the safezone to get them and put them on the market.
yes, thats the idea though, isnt it? i mean, you have people who have different playstyles. The pvp people, or otherwise people who are not afraid to leave the safe zone can get the rare ores, and sell them to everyone, including the ones who dont want to leave. Its an mmo. Everyone is on one server. There are tons of playstyles that can all work together, even unintentionally.
 
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Well no you can't do that if everyone is doing that. If you are buying non-SZ(or moon) mats off the market, then there is a player going out of the safezone to get them and put them on the market.
Of course you can. Because our Corporatioon doing so. Other players doing so. They are not afraid of PVP content, they losing ships, built new. But most importantly, they Unite. For ex. we provide convoy defense for our miners and haulers. Oher singleplayers just put some turrets on the ship. Believe me, you need a thick ship to survive a meet with such defensive miner.

I just don't understand people who goes to the high ranked, rare ore (on the other side of gates) and not taking any risks... then what's the point of high ranked, rare ore?

Summary: If you don't like PVP, there are a lot of ways to play with rich wallet and not even thinking about PVP. It is very easy to do so, and I think FB doing good thing by adding Radiation activity, or there will be a lot of rich players, who got their wallet without a drop of sweat. What's then the achievement feeling after all?
 
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yes, thats the idea though, isnt it? i mean, you have people who have different playstyles. The pvp people, or otherwise people who are not afraid to leave the safe zone can get the rare ores, and sell them to everyone, including the ones who dont want to leave. Its an mmo. Everyone is on one server. There are tons of playstyles that can all work together, even unintentionally.
Yes he's saying it like the game is all doom and gloom because everyone is mining safe and buying non safe ore off the AH. And I'm just like yeah duh but hello someone is still gathering those ores so why does it matter if Joe can buy them all safe like, go find Jack whos mining moon belt he's out there quit acting like he isn't. I get right now it's hard to find people but that's already known and planned. So I just don't get all these people trying to take away from what is currently in the SZ which won't change a thing to do.
 

Bracaster

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Aug 8, 2021
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So I just don't get all these people trying to take away from what is currently in the SZ which won't change a thing to do.
Dank, no one is trying to remove your safe zone or its resources from the game. It is the OP here that is petitioning for more resources and safety OUTSIDE of what is already in the SZ, and that the balance of the game has swung too far in favor of PVP. This thread is supposed to be about PVE failing, and (from my subjective opinion) no one has made a correct case for this to be true at all. It seems to me more like a case of a few people upset about losing their ship a couple times (I understand. It HAS happened to me too). It is SO EASY to stay in SZ and rake in asteroids and earn without any risk at all. Don't try to tell me there aren't enough asteroids. There are and just because many of the jumbo sized ones have been gathered does not mean its empty of resources. Staying inside the SZ is boring as hell and i believe that the argument for PVE failing is genuinely coming from players who are traumatized by having been hit once or twice and stuck playing in this limited and beginner zone of the game.

I don't mean to be rude on this point. But the PVE failing argument is empty and lacks validity. PVE is all there is for me at the moment, and all i've been doing is taking risks to try and engage with other players for the previous 2 weeks of play. I'm stuck in PVE hell atm. I'm not excited to play much right now at all and haven't logged in the last 5 days. Here I'll try and make a point for the PVE side..., PVE is failing because that is all there is to do atm. If PVE is all we have then yes, the game is failing and PVE along with it.

Here is the upside for those who prefer that this game engender more PVE. Your getting more and more of it right now. Many of the players, like myself, who were excited about PVP in this game have departed. Someone on the PVE failing side needs to make a good point here or let this subject roll away.
 
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Dank, no one is trying to remove your safe zone or its resources from the game. It is the OP here that is petitioning for more resources and safety OUTSIDE of what is already in the SZ, and that the balance of the game has swung too far in favor of PVP. This thread is supposed to be about PVE failing, and (from my subjective opinion) no one has made a correct case for this to be true at all. It seems to me more like a case of a few people upset about losing their ship a couple times (I understand. It HAS happened to me too). It is SO EASY to stay in SZ and rake in asteroids and earn without any risk at all. Don't try to tell me there aren't enough asteroids. There are and just because many of the jumbo sized ones have been gathered does not mean its empty of resources. Staying inside the SZ is boring as hell and i believe that the argument for PVE failing is genuinely coming from players who are traumatized by having been hit once or twice and stuck playing in this limited and beginner zone of the game.

I don't mean to be rude on this point. But the PVE failing argument is empty and lacks validity. PVE is all there is for me at the moment, and all i've been doing is taking risks to try and engage with other players for the previous 2 weeks of play. I'm stuck in PVE hell atm. I'm not excited to play much right now at all and haven't logged in the last 5 days. Here I'll try and make a point for the PVE side..., PVE is failing because that is all there is to do atm. If PVE is all we have then yes, the game is failing and PVE along with it.

Here is the upside for those who prefer that this game engender more PVE. Your getting more and more of it right now. Many of the players, like myself, who were excited about PVP in this game have departed. Someone on the PVE failing side needs to make a good point here or let this subject roll away.
First of all, I consider myself a pvp player - who is also addicted to the SSC. I'm not afraid to mine outside the safezone. Although, I don't consider hunting unarmed unwilling players to be good pvp, but I digress.

I also, don't agree with the premise of the OP, nor do I disagree with what you've said here.

I only disagreed with the exact quote I replied to. That's why I quoted a specific statement, and replied to it.

-edit Oh and there are plenty of people trying to take away what is currently in the SZ thinking it's going to fix PVP. It's not going to.
 

Vanidar

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Aug 23, 2021
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Oh and there are plenty of people trying to take away what is currently in the SZ thinking it's going to fix PVP. It's not going to.
Fixing "PvP" isn't the goal. I'm not even sure what that means. Having an in-game environment that supports a sensical risk/reward equation is the goal.

The most profitable money/hour should not be allowed be done in 100% safety, period. Not even by half. Moreover, I should not feel like I have to abuse one of the many flavors of safezones coming along just to keep up with everyone else. I want to be able to play outside of the safezones more often than not and feel like there is reward proportional to the risk, I want other people to be incentivized/rewarded/blown-up for doing the same, and I want an area of the game to support this more risk-keen playstyle specifically. Currently these things aren't supported with safezones everywhere and the ore with the best ROI being inside those safezones (or a 30 sec flight away worst case).

Sure, people are venturing out to get the more rare ore, but there's a microscopic amount of demand for them and also a bad ROI wrt time and risk compared to charodium. That is a problem. I have no issue if someone wants to choose to play inside of a safezone for the entirety of the time they play Starbase and just buy rarer ore from the AH, that's on them and they should never be *forced* to leave, but they shouldn't be able to compete in $/hour with the potential upside of non-safe zone areas. Until that environment exists in game, or until you have a constructive input besides "yeah that wont work", I'll continue to support moving charodium outside the SZ.

It's really not surprising how nearly all risk-keen or "pvpers" just dont play at the moment. The risk-averse are saying PvE is failing when I'd argue it's how the extreme end of the risk-averse player is catered to at every design decision that is causing PvE to feel unhealthy. There are no ships blowing up because there is no true organic reason to fight, no true compelling reason for the average person to leave the SZ besides novelty, and there is no demand for anything you are mining or creating in your PvE adventures because we are drowning in supply.
 
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shado20

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May 16, 2020
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74
when they get the stations fix so you can live 100% away from the safe zone. ill leave the safe zone and not come back. so will many more do this. this is when the outside safe zone will be way more profitable. this is when pvp will be fixed. until this MAGOR part of the game is fixed, nothing else matters!
 
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