PVE is already failing...
- Thread starter Mutleyx
- Start date
On the developmental side, i know it must be a huge challenge for them to make decisions on how to keep the game entertaining. It's a huuuge investment of not only money, but passion. Of course the devs are going to debate, and think over these issues over and over again till they all got busting migraines over the subject. The ultimate goal is to make a game we all enjoy. The feedback we provide is really the closest thing they can use to influence their decisions. I say this, because if the game were to fail, its not just their fault, its ours too, because these devs are most definitely listening to the playerbase.
One thing i do know is that a huge contributor to bringing in players is streaming. What content do people watch on streams? would people want to watch you slap rocks, or build? sure, there might be a few. But, by the facts we have seen from content creators, pvp is what really gets people excited, compared to the smaller niche of people who like the building, mining, pve stuff. Shroud, and others like him made their fame from it. Pvp is what will bring in players. there is so much factual proof on this, its ridiculous. When this game releases pvp content, and that content starts hitting streaming platforms, then thats when we will start seeing a playerbase grow. im certain of it. While, at the same time, keeping that smaller area for beginners, and people who dont wish to pvp to keep the others around, or even give the pvp guys a break to collect themselves, especially after getting hammered from a raid.
One thing i do know is that a huge contributor to bringing in players is streaming. What content do people watch on streams? would people want to watch you slap rocks, or build? sure, there might be a few. But, by the facts we have seen from content creators, pvp is what really gets people excited, compared to the smaller niche of people who like the building, mining, pve stuff. Shroud, and others like him made their fame from it. Pvp is what will bring in players. there is so much factual proof on this, its ridiculous. When this game releases pvp content, and that content starts hitting streaming platforms, then thats when we will start seeing a playerbase grow. im certain of it. While, at the same time, keeping that smaller area for beginners, and people who dont wish to pvp to keep the others around, or even give the pvp guys a break to collect themselves, especially after getting hammered from a raid.
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I'll drop the chart here for further discussion. It's meant to show what's the problem with SZ mining.
All numbers are pulled out of my butt - it's the formula that shows the general trend.
Profit is what drives action of lot of players. It's counted as resource gained, divided by time minus loss from pirates.
You can clearly see where the biggest profit lies - in SZ. To change that trend, the 3 other components need to change.
The biggest obstacle right now is IMO distance you need to travel from Origin. It could be largely nullified by focusing on station functionality, so players don't relay on Origin. Once player stations work, functionality of origin should be gradually reduced to noob-level stuff (fee for keeping too much ores in dev storage, limited max size of ships purchased from SSC, ect.)
With those changes, distance from Origin would still matter, but not as much as now.
Asteroid quality and quantity doesn't grow linearly, but the distance does. To justify flying further towards the belt, it needs to grow either linearly or even exponentially.
I boosted piracy importance in the formula, so you can even notice it. In reality there's much less chance of finding any. It's very much range-dependent, as the population density drops exponentially with distance. Player stations and long range detection should even that out. Pirates should be a threat that you know you'll face. So people focus on fighting them, not avoiding.
The goal is to get the graph to look something like that: Profit rising as you venture closer to the belt core.
With a slight dive just behind the edge of safe zone, due to large pirate population density. But we don't want people to hop in-out SZ anyway.
And yes, I'm a nerd, so I deal in graphs.
All numbers are pulled out of my butt - it's the formula that shows the general trend.
Profit is what drives action of lot of players. It's counted as resource gained, divided by time minus loss from pirates.
You can clearly see where the biggest profit lies - in SZ. To change that trend, the 3 other components need to change.
The biggest obstacle right now is IMO distance you need to travel from Origin. It could be largely nullified by focusing on station functionality, so players don't relay on Origin. Once player stations work, functionality of origin should be gradually reduced to noob-level stuff (fee for keeping too much ores in dev storage, limited max size of ships purchased from SSC, ect.)
With those changes, distance from Origin would still matter, but not as much as now.
Asteroid quality and quantity doesn't grow linearly, but the distance does. To justify flying further towards the belt, it needs to grow either linearly or even exponentially.
I boosted piracy importance in the formula, so you can even notice it. In reality there's much less chance of finding any. It's very much range-dependent, as the population density drops exponentially with distance. Player stations and long range detection should even that out. Pirates should be a threat that you know you'll face. So people focus on fighting them, not avoiding.
The goal is to get the graph to look something like that: Profit rising as you venture closer to the belt core.
With a slight dive just behind the edge of safe zone, due to large pirate population density. But we don't want people to hop in-out SZ anyway.
And yes, I'm a nerd, so I deal in graphs.
While I feel some of your math is hand-wavy, you yourself have acknowledged that, but I agree with the overall message here. I also don't agree with profit not trending down the further you get out from Origin the way the game is today. Profit/hour for anything other than Origin safezone mining (typically Chardoium) is all orders of magnitude lower than said safezone mining, so the final ~half to ~third of your first graph regarding profit is a bit optimistic to my eyes. Lastly, I think it's important to factor in the current round-trip requirement -- nothing is selling at any significate rate anywhere outside of Origin because the vast majority of the playerbase is currently living at Origin since it's so damn profitable and there's no compelling reason to leave. They tried with adding Markka station, but the 2% to 10% tax rate on the AH is, honestly, inconsequential. So the further you go out, the further it takes to get back. So, flight time should have a 2x component there.
All that being said, I wholeheartedly agree with the problem you're trying to illustrate here and that it is absolutely a sore spot for most players. As you increase risk, typically you should increase reward, but currently and for the foreseeable future it would appear mining inside of a safezone is going to be the winner by miles in profitability, both in raw $/hour and the complete lack of risk. Having a system where players get to select their own preference on where to live on that risk equation, and then get a commensurate reward for that risk, would be great for everyone.
Here's hoping civilian capital ships don't make this graph look even uglier.
All that being said, I wholeheartedly agree with the problem you're trying to illustrate here and that it is absolutely a sore spot for most players. As you increase risk, typically you should increase reward, but currently and for the foreseeable future it would appear mining inside of a safezone is going to be the winner by miles in profitability, both in raw $/hour and the complete lack of risk. Having a system where players get to select their own preference on where to live on that risk equation, and then get a commensurate reward for that risk, would be great for everyone.
Here's hoping civilian capital ships don't make this graph look even uglier.
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guys got to keep in consideration that the better ships you want are gonna be built or purchased with the rarer ores. Ymrium and Lukium can only be mined to my knowledge around the moon belt, in the non safe zone. so no matter how you want to look at it, rather you buy the stuff off ah at ridiculous high prices and stay in safe zone really cutting deep into your pockets, or you go out and get it yourself. someone has to go get the stuff, meaning someone is going to have to risk it out, or those of you who are to afraid to venture out will be cut off. and since all the stations except the origins have different Auction Houses, those same rare ores may stop ending up at origin since the new stations will be right where your already working.
you think people gonna risk another 250km non safe zone trip from markka to origin or sell it right there at markka? same with the moon, because as these new areas come out, they will become populated and the longer you been playing the need to go back to the starting zone will begin to shrink, meaning those who confine themselves there may start seeing a drop in rarer goods(at the origin stations). if you go to the moon right now there is a lot of stations with their transponders on and very visible from the surface of the moon, so a good portion of vet players are already out there in a non safe zone working. honestly its most likely going to be that way as the game goes on. this is one of them situations where the individual players pvp fear is going to limit them in this game.
you think people gonna risk another 250km non safe zone trip from markka to origin or sell it right there at markka? same with the moon, because as these new areas come out, they will become populated and the longer you been playing the need to go back to the starting zone will begin to shrink, meaning those who confine themselves there may start seeing a drop in rarer goods(at the origin stations). if you go to the moon right now there is a lot of stations with their transponders on and very visible from the surface of the moon, so a good portion of vet players are already out there in a non safe zone working. honestly its most likely going to be that way as the game goes on. this is one of them situations where the individual players pvp fear is going to limit them in this game.
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Pretty nice write up there.
Graphs are cool as they visualize data quite clearly in many cases. On the other hand, looking at graphs with a subjective perspective can lead to gross misunderstanding and forming incorrect expectations/opinion.
All these graphs show is a snapshot of the current situation, one which is in very early stages of game development. Many mechanics and features impacting this are still only showing on the internal plans/roadmap FB will no doubt have. Big factors such as stations and Caps are either in game in a very rudimentary/basic form or yet to arrive. Many deciding mechanics (especially regarding PVP combat) are not even on the current public roadmap yet.
In general, I think that too many are losing sight of the point in development SB is right now. The expectations are way beyond that and as such are bound to not be fulfilled for quite some time. These graphs are good as a snapshot of the current situation but carry very little relevance to where the game will go. And it is not a requirement for FB to share all their plans as many of those will change or shift in priority over time and we've already seen how some react to "announced features" being delayed by 4-8 weeks.
It will be at least a year before the overall picture of where SB will go becomes more public and then another year at least for the game to actually get there. FB has been very clear that they expect to need at least two years to get the game ready, and I expect by that they meant ready for Beta.
IMO, only once they get closer to beta can we talk balance, polish and you can start arguing details.
Graphs are cool as they visualize data quite clearly in many cases. On the other hand, looking at graphs with a subjective perspective can lead to gross misunderstanding and forming incorrect expectations/opinion.
All these graphs show is a snapshot of the current situation, one which is in very early stages of game development. Many mechanics and features impacting this are still only showing on the internal plans/roadmap FB will no doubt have. Big factors such as stations and Caps are either in game in a very rudimentary/basic form or yet to arrive. Many deciding mechanics (especially regarding PVP combat) are not even on the current public roadmap yet.
In general, I think that too many are losing sight of the point in development SB is right now. The expectations are way beyond that and as such are bound to not be fulfilled for quite some time. These graphs are good as a snapshot of the current situation but carry very little relevance to where the game will go. And it is not a requirement for FB to share all their plans as many of those will change or shift in priority over time and we've already seen how some react to "announced features" being delayed by 4-8 weeks.
It will be at least a year before the overall picture of where SB will go becomes more public and then another year at least for the game to actually get there. FB has been very clear that they expect to need at least two years to get the game ready, and I expect by that they meant ready for Beta.
IMO, only once they get closer to beta can we talk balance, polish and you can start arguing details.
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There is two layers here.
I agree, that its meaningless to fanaticly argue for why X costs more then Y or some other purely numerical value (that will be changed dozen times from now) or about some feature being delayed 4 weeks not 2 weeks (because reality of development).
At same time, balance also not only numbers, but to large extent long chain of fundamentals, that later not so easy or near impossible to change, if they implemented historicly wrong way. So, later it becomes evident, but blocked by "oh, but people will loose too much time an effort, if we change that", "its now too late to change, will take million hours of dev time" -- I think we seen couple of such dead-ends (or near so) in DU. Here is where community must produce as much feedback as possible, so devs can see better gravity or predicted consequeces of desicions at hand.
I agree, that its meaningless to fanaticly argue for why X costs more then Y or some other purely numerical value (that will be changed dozen times from now) or about some feature being delayed 4 weeks not 2 weeks (because reality of development).
At same time, balance also not only numbers, but to large extent long chain of fundamentals, that later not so easy or near impossible to change, if they implemented historicly wrong way. So, later it becomes evident, but blocked by "oh, but people will loose too much time an effort, if we change that", "its now too late to change, will take million hours of dev time" -- I think we seen couple of such dead-ends (or near so) in DU. Here is where community must produce as much feedback as possible, so devs can see better gravity or predicted consequeces of desicions at hand.
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Certainly true on both fronts @le_souriceau
I guess point regarding the latter is that basically sailing a one-track course, ignoring any possible others, and bashing anyone who tries to bring or keep those relevant in the discussion is not productive in that respect. A game like SB is not build on any one pillar or mechanic, the success of the game will depend on how all the components that make the game are interlinked and interdependent. And for that to become a sensible discussion I feel these components need to be in game in their initial implementation at least.
Your analogy with DU is valid to the point where Novaquark never even bothered to take player feedback into account once they announced a new mechanic or feature, only to keep ploughing along to make their idea work (basically justifying it with "you just do not understand") for months, to then come to the same conclusions many of us had reached on first sight (with the series of "we heard you" posts). This happened several times and is still the case today.
I am not getting that same vibe from Frozenbyte at all, they seem to have their ear to the ground and already have shown a willingness and ability to make changes following sensible community feedback.
I guess point regarding the latter is that basically sailing a one-track course, ignoring any possible others, and bashing anyone who tries to bring or keep those relevant in the discussion is not productive in that respect. A game like SB is not build on any one pillar or mechanic, the success of the game will depend on how all the components that make the game are interlinked and interdependent. And for that to become a sensible discussion I feel these components need to be in game in their initial implementation at least.
Your analogy with DU is valid to the point where Novaquark never even bothered to take player feedback into account once they announced a new mechanic or feature, only to keep ploughing along to make their idea work (basically justifying it with "you just do not understand") for months, to then come to the same conclusions many of us had reached on first sight (with the series of "we heard you" posts). This happened several times and is still the case today.
I am not getting that same vibe from Frozenbyte at all, they seem to have their ear to the ground and already have shown a willingness and ability to make changes following sensible community feedback.
are civilian capital ships not enough? They are invincible. You can take them anywhere. What more can you ask for without stepping on the pvp community? When I read between the lines, I see implications of pve players wanting to make pvp less natural, less primal, and more controlled. This cannot happen without the pvp crowd being very upset about it. These suggestions are limiting pvp to hotspots, and trying to eliminate it everywhere else. This is not natural, this feels like a cage that does not agree with the nature of pvp when it’s mean to fly free. You all have your safe zones, you all have your indestructible civilian ships that can go anywhere in complete safety. Make a station in the safe zone. Dock your Civ cap there, leave to known mining locations, step out 5 feet, look around with upcoming radiation tech to make sure coast is clear, mine, return, go about your business. Join a larger pve group. You guys have a tendency to work together on a larger scale to a common goal. As opposed to pvp groups in their “gang” like nature wanting to beat everyone else to be the king of their conquest. You guys are less competitive. You can use this in a large group to help each other. I don’t see what the fuss is about. I support pve, I don’t mind it. But, I do get upset when they try to control our side of the game, because the consequences are greater than just our pew pew habits. It impacts the economy, the smooth flow of the game, the loop….. Albion online, and eve online do this great. The better stuff is locked behind risk in most cases. Albion, red, and black zones. Eve online, null sec. Unless you grind hard on professions (that takes time as it should) or just buy on the market. There has to be that balance. Some of you want to see it gone. A lot of you would love pvp to be completely non existent. You have plenty of content to protect you. If anyone responds to this post who disagrees, I’d like to ask you to kindly describe starbase, as you would have it, if you were Lauri.. I’m curious what it would be like, and how others would respond.
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I'm sorry if you feel I am trying to control anything regarding PvP. That is certainly not the intent of my original post (or any others for that matter).
Instead I am concerned by this: larger sized asteroids are becoming rare in an increasingly large radius around origin (previously in a radius of around 50k, but now it's more like 100k and growing). Just flying for an hour searching for a decent 'roids is simply not fun.
Yes, cap ships will help, but we don't have those yet, and they do not entirely solve the problem. Imagine 6 months from now, a new (for want of a better term) PvE mining style player joins the game, wants to mine the big stuff. At the rate the game is progressing they will need to fly out to 700k to find them, even if they can afford cap ships. Or they will need to join a group and get help, but again, not everyone wants that.
I see this as a weakness in the game, and that is what I am attempting to highlight. It surprises me that this opinion offends some people, but hey, such is life
Instead I am concerned by this: larger sized asteroids are becoming rare in an increasingly large radius around origin (previously in a radius of around 50k, but now it's more like 100k and growing). Just flying for an hour searching for a decent 'roids is simply not fun.
Yes, cap ships will help, but we don't have those yet, and they do not entirely solve the problem. Imagine 6 months from now, a new (for want of a better term) PvE mining style player joins the game, wants to mine the big stuff. At the rate the game is progressing they will need to fly out to 700k to find them, even if they can afford cap ships. Or they will need to join a group and get help, but again, not everyone wants that.
I see this as a weakness in the game, and that is what I am attempting to highlight. It surprises me that this opinion offends some people, but hey, such is life
A suggestion to avoid ganking:
- 0-50 km: SZ (auto regen astéroid T1-7 between 20 and 40 km)
- 50-80 km: Half SZ* (the player must not sleep in autopilot) Astéroid T5-8
- 80+ km: Free war (Only T7-T11 astéroid) random spawn of asteroid T11 with an indication visible by all players within a radius of 200 km
*Half SZ: Collision damage but weapons disabled
- 0-50 km: SZ (auto regen astéroid T1-7 between 20 and 40 km)
- 50-80 km: Half SZ* (the player must not sleep in autopilot) Astéroid T5-8
- 80+ km: Free war (Only T7-T11 astéroid) random spawn of asteroid T11 with an indication visible by all players within a radius of 200 km
*Half SZ: Collision damage but weapons disabled
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SZ already too big and kind (you can make millions never leaving it).
Every economical step in game must be realisticly (not theorethicly) oposed by risk of PvP or game economy will be eventualy ruined by 24/7 hoarders/grinders. Want good stuff - risk. What best stuff - risk even more.
Why? Ganking already only statistical possibility, if you not completly wooden-headed (considering game population, world size, speed meta).
Every economical step in game must be realisticly (not theorethicly) oposed by risk of PvP or game economy will be eventualy ruined by 24/7 hoarders/grinders. Want good stuff - risk. What best stuff - risk even more.
Why? Ganking already only statistical possibility, if you not completly wooden-headed (considering game population, world size, speed meta).
Precisely, there is very little interest to by remained in the pvp zone, it requires publicly visible points of interest to start a real war between Pirate and big company and stop the free rape of little miner which starts the game.
I have farm 4 million and I’ve lost 3 million in 2 trip at out of Safezone by the pirates, it’s precisely because of people with your mentality that nobody stays in the game.
On the one side you have the big dicks who earn millions and complain about meeting nobody (ouinnnn ouinnnn), on the other you have the guys who get raped in the chain and lose everything because he’s just unlucky.
The risk and rewards must be progressive because the current gameplay is a fucking coincidence
if your definition of pvp is murder unarmed people who are trying to make their first ship, you are just another asshole who participating to the end of game
I have farm 4 million and I’ve lost 3 million in 2 trip at out of Safezone by the pirates, it’s precisely because of people with your mentality that nobody stays in the game.
On the one side you have the big dicks who earn millions and complain about meeting nobody (ouinnnn ouinnnn), on the other you have the guys who get raped in the chain and lose everything because he’s just unlucky.
The risk and rewards must be progressive because the current gameplay is a fucking coincidence
if your definition of pvp is murder unarmed people who are trying to make their first ship, you are just another asshole who participating to the end of game
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I'm sorry if you feel I am trying to control anything regarding PvP. That is certainly not the intent of my original post (or any others for that matter).
Instead I am concerned by this: larger sized asteroids are becoming rare in an increasingly large radius around origin (previously in a radius of around 50k, but now it's more like 100k and growing). Just flying for an hour searching for a decent 'roids is simply not fun.
Yes, cap ships will help, but we don't have those yet, and they do not entirely solve the problem. Imagine 6 months from now, a new (for want of a better term) PvE mining style player joins the game, wants to mine the big stuff. At the rate the game is progressing they will need to fly out to 700k to find them, even if they can afford cap ships. Or they will need to join a group and get help, but again, not everyone wants that.
I see this as a weakness in the game, and that is what I am attempting to highlight. It surprises me that this opinion offends some people, but hey, such is life
Instead I am concerned by this: larger sized asteroids are becoming rare in an increasingly large radius around origin (previously in a radius of around 50k, but now it's more like 100k and growing). Just flying for an hour searching for a decent 'roids is simply not fun.
Yes, cap ships will help, but we don't have those yet, and they do not entirely solve the problem. Imagine 6 months from now, a new (for want of a better term) PvE mining style player joins the game, wants to mine the big stuff. At the rate the game is progressing they will need to fly out to 700k to find them, even if they can afford cap ships. Or they will need to join a group and get help, but again, not everyone wants that.
I see this as a weakness in the game, and that is what I am attempting to highlight. It surprises me that this opinion offends some people, but hey, such is life
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You saying complete nonsense all over your post.
"Little newbie miner" (you so eagerly use as hero of your fairytale) can easly earn millions never leaving SZ and build like 10 first or last ships he ever desired. If he smart enough to go into options and allow his ship to leave SZ, then he enters competitive stage (both economicly and combat-wise) -- warned about risks and consequences. Everything what happens next is about person ablity to learn.
People who can't learn or face problems with at least some mental stamina -- will leave anyway. Nothing can be done about this in such game.
"Little newbie miner" (you so eagerly use as hero of your fairytale) can easly earn millions never leaving SZ and build like 10 first or last ships he ever desired. If he smart enough to go into options and allow his ship to leave SZ, then he enters competitive stage (both economicly and combat-wise) -- warned about risks and consequences. Everything what happens next is about person ablity to learn.
People who can't learn or face problems with at least some mental stamina -- will leave anyway. Nothing can be done about this in such game.
I'm sorry if you feel I am trying to control anything regarding PvP. That is certainly not the intent of my original post (or any others for that matter).
Instead I am concerned by this: larger sized asteroids are becoming rare in an increasingly large radius around origin (previously in a radius of around 50k, but now it's more like 100k and growing). Just flying for an hour searching for a decent 'roids is simply not fun.
Yes, cap ships will help, but we don't have those yet, and they do not entirely solve the problem. Imagine 6 months from now, a new (for want of a better term) PvE mining style player joins the game, wants to mine the big stuff. At the rate the game is progressing they will need to fly out to 700k to find them, even if they can afford cap ships. Or they will need to join a group and get help, but again, not everyone wants that.
I see this as a weakness in the game, and that is what I am attempting to highlight. It surprises me that this opinion offends some people, but hey, such is life
Instead I am concerned by this: larger sized asteroids are becoming rare in an increasingly large radius around origin (previously in a radius of around 50k, but now it's more like 100k and growing). Just flying for an hour searching for a decent 'roids is simply not fun.
Yes, cap ships will help, but we don't have those yet, and they do not entirely solve the problem. Imagine 6 months from now, a new (for want of a better term) PvE mining style player joins the game, wants to mine the big stuff. At the rate the game is progressing they will need to fly out to 700k to find them, even if they can afford cap ships. Or they will need to join a group and get help, but again, not everyone wants that.
I see this as a weakness in the game, and that is what I am attempting to highlight. It surprises me that this opinion offends some people, but hey, such is life
Adding big roids close to Origin will just keep that trend.
We need something to encourage veteran players with big strip-miners to go further towards belt core instead, and leave SZ scraps for new players.
Half SZ won't work - people will just build ramming ships and smash others.
Also big juicy roids don't need light as a beacon randomly. They could do that when someone swings a pickaxe at them.
Sent me the proof that you made millions by staying in SZ with a starting ship (6-20 crates).