Ship combat is missing something

Bob Dole

Active endo
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
31
#1
In the last PVP event, me and my friend Robbin were piloting a long-range ship, and I have no idea whether or not I hit anything, so it felt a bit... bad?

It would be nice if there was an indicator if shots dealt damage to a structure/ship, maybe something unintrusive such as a soft high pitched beep. How is anyone supposed to improve if they no clue if what they are doing is working or not?

It's like... if you practiced your shooting skills IRL with a blindfold on, and you aren't allowed to check the target you are trying to hit, would you be able to become a better shot in those conditions?
 
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Amos.37

Veteran endo
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
141
#5
I think a hit indicator when you hit/kill an endo would be nice, but I don't think it's necessary.
I personally think a ship hit indicator would not really add anything though. Especially for penetrating weapons like the rail gun.
The whole idea of the rail gun is a small hole right through the target. It may only hit plating and nothing else, doing absolutely nothing, or hit a generator and one shot the ship. Whether you hit the ship or not is really inconsequential. the question is did you hit something important? Which should be obvious based on what happens to the ship afterwards.
 

Bob Dole

Active endo
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
31
#6
That sounds like a good drawback to a weapon with huge range and destructive ability
Except you realize you can never improve, because you'll never know if you are hitting, this goes back to the point of practicing with a gun irl while blindfolded. Is it really good practice to have a sniper take 0 skill since none is able to improve with it?
 

Cavilier210

Veteran endo
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
245
#7
Except you realize you can never improve, because you'll never know if you are hitting, this goes back to the point of practicing with a gun irl while blindfolded. Is it really good practice to have a sniper take 0 skill since none is able to improve with it?
So an incentive to not use the rail gun at maximum ranges. Or even as primary weapon.

Which tbh, I know when I hit with a laser, but I don't know how well that hit did. There is uncertainty in combat, and I think its good to have to deal with that uncertainty. Or make your own tools, when the option becomes available. Too many gamers today are baby'd with tons of information that allows them to theorycraft a min/max build with relative certainty. Its refreshing to have a game where that's not the case, and multiple options exist due to those uncertainties. There are pro's and cons to every engineering choice. It is so rare that that happens in an artificial environment, and it not just amount to flavor.

Like in the resources out there. Oninom is definitely the best armor, but is it the most cost effective? Its rarity thus far shows me that its put well outside economic feasibility to use it wantonly, unlike charodium and aegiseum. So we have 3 armors that all have their pro's and cons. Their use cases.

The same applies to weaponry. Especially that, with a railgun, if you hit, most craft in the game will definitely be messed up, and you'll see that in their flight behavior. Pay attention to things other than the HUD, and you'll find the information you need in other ways. Essentially what Amos said.
 

Bob Dole

Active endo
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
31
#8
So an incentive to not use the rail cannon at maximum ranges. Or even as primary weapon.

Which tbh, I know when I hit with a laser, but I don't know how well that hit did. There is uncertainty in combat, and I think its good to have to deal with that uncertainty. Or make your own tools, when the option becomes available. Too many gamers today are baby'd with tons of information that allows them to theorycraft a min/max build with relative certainty. Its refreshing to have a game where that's not the case, and multiple options exist due to those uncertainties. There are pro's and cons to every engineering choice. It is so rare that that happens in an artificial environment, and it not just amount to flavor.

Like in the resources out there. Oninom is definitely the best armor, but is it the most cost effective? Its rarity thus far shows me that its put well outside economic feasibility to use it wantonly, unlike charodium and aegiseum. So we have 3 armors that all have their pro's and cons. Their use cases.

The same applies to weaponry. Especially that, with a rail cannon, if you hit, most craft in the game will definitely be messed up, and you'll see that in their flight behavior. Pay attention to things other than the HUD, and you'll find the information you need in other ways. Essentially what Amos said.
I was in the pvp event for an hour and a half, and I was constantly shooting my rail cannon from a turret while my friend drives, and not at any point did I think I hit something for certain, and not at any point did I think to tweak my own aiming behavior, not because I couldn't, but because there was nothing to tweak, i had absolutely nothing to work with, and the whole experience didn't make me a better shooter by even 0.1%

You want to say it's good game design because of a vague notion that you can figure out the information from what you've been given, but you are just wrong. There is no information feedback here from shooting at a tiny speck of a ship far far away, and it really is like being blindfolded and being asked to improve by shooting a tin can 10,000 feet away, and not being allowed to inspect the tin can after to know if what you did worked. Due to this I was frankly bored, it was about as engaging as sleeping.

Maybe I'm just stupid, maybe most people can get better at shooting by blindfolding themselves and shooting in the dark, I guess i should live with it, because I'm too dumb to become a better shot under those conditions. Maybe I should take up knitting, at least I can see my own improvement in that case, and at least I wouldn't be as bored as i was during that pvp event, and because I'll know my time is actually spent improving.
 
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Amos.37

Veteran endo
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
141
#9
I was in the pvp event for an hour and a half, and I was constantly shooting my rail gun from a turret while my friend drives, and not at any point did I think I hit something for certain, and not at any point did I think to tweak my own aiming behavior, not because I couldn't, but because there was nothing to tweak, i had absolutely nothing to work with, and the whole experience didn't make me a better shooter by even 0.1%

You want to say it's good game design because of a vague notion that you can figure out the information from what you've been given, but you are just wrong. There is no information feedback here from shooting at a tiny speck of a ship far far away, and it really is like being blindfolded and being asked to improve by shooting a tin can 10,000 feet away, and not being allowed to inspect the tin can after to know if what you did worked. Due to this I was frankly bored, it was about as engaging as sleeping.
You could quite easily set up a practice range of sorts with a friend, as long as one of you is willing to sacrifice a ship.

Ever done long range target shooting in real life? It's often very difficult/nigh impossible to see where you hit, or even if you hit, on a target that's far away. You either need a spotter, or to go and check the target after a few shots.

Maybe it's hard to get good feedback for practice in a live combat scenario, but you know what? In the real world it IS hard to get feedback in a live combat scenario!
As Cav has said, this game doesn't baby you with instant feedback. Test things, practice, design and improve with iterations. Do things the hard way!

And, the lack of instant feedback also discourages sniper builds that one shot enemies. It is still possible to one shot an enemy ship, but it requires knowledge of the ship you're fighting, and/or a good bit of luck to pull off.
 

Bob Dole

Active endo
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
31
#10
You could quite easily set up a practice range of sorts with a friend, as long as one of you is willing to sacrifice a ship.

Ever done long range target shooting in real life? It's often very difficult/nigh impossible to see where you hit, or even if you hit, on a target that's far away. You either need a spotter, or to go and check the target after a few shots.

Maybe it's hard to get good feedback for practice in a live combat scenario, but you know what? In the real world it IS hard to get feedback in a live combat scenario!
As Cav has said, this game doesn't baby you with instant feedback. Test things, practice, design and improve with iterations. Do things the hard way!

And, the lack of instant feedback also discourages sniper builds that one shot enemies. It is still possible to one shot an enemy ship, but it requires knowledge of the ship you're fighting, and/or a good bit of luck to pull off.
You've completely changed my mind, I'm 100% on board with things staying as they are, i can even imagine the great conversations that will be had when people join the game.

*New player joins guild*

New player: "Hey, i joined this game because I heard the ship combat is fun, I wanna play as a sniper, so i hope i can hop on one of your turrets and go pvp with you guys."

Guild member: "A sniper huh?... you won't be able to improve with live combat practice if you want to do that, and doing so won't make you any better, you have to first take this 2-week guild course 5 hours a day, where you shoot at a friend, while he sometimes says," "yeah that one hit"

New player: "are you kidding me?"
Guild member: "no"
New player: "so you're saying I won't get any better in pvp and have to do this nonsense practice for 2 weeks? and afterward, I will have to go back to this nonsense practice again if i want to improve further? since actual pvp can't make you a better player?"
Guild member: "pretty much, if there was feedback, then you could practice while you pvp as a sniper, but since there's no feedback this is how it is for now"
New player: "seems they lied about the ship combat being fun"
Guild member: " it's more realistic though"
Guild member: "hello hello?"
Guild member: "damn, he closed the game and went to do something else... and i had a good feeling about this new recruit too... weird... this is the 10th new recruit in a row to do that, sigh, none appreciate realism anymore :("


EXHILARATING, this game is so realistic just like real life, and just like real-life space it has drag, and you can hear sound in it.
#Changenothing
#Realism
 
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Dommy

Active endo
Joined
May 8, 2020
Messages
44
#11
There are many other ways you can improve in combat, in ways you cannot improve through training.
The max range for guns is 1 km. 1 second for a railgun. Bob, I don't think you hit anything at all if your targets were very small on your screen.
 

Bob Dole

Active endo
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
31
#12
There are many other ways you can improve in combat, in ways you cannot improve through training.
The max range for guns is 1 km. 1 second for a railgun. Bob, I don't think you hit anything at all if your targets were very small on your screen.
Rail Cannon not rail gun, my bad.
 

five

Master endo
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
279
#16
I would prefer, if there was nothing like a "COD-Hitmarker" or something along the lines of that. You either now if u hit or you dont, i prefer this system because I have played games like WarThunder or Heroes of Generals, where the only way to know or the more efficient way to kill is to follow the traces of your bullets and how they intersect with the trajectory of your target. If you dont have HE munition in WarThunder there is no "Explosion" showing u that u hit, which is a point that starbase makes it easier. What also makes SB "easier" is that basically every weapon fires tracer rounds.
 

MoneylooJr

Learned-to-turn-off-magboots endo
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
46
#17
If you spent an hour and a half in the combat event, and never got direct confirmation you hit a target, and at no point thought to tweak your aiming behavior, that is on you, not the weapon. You tell if the gun worked or not and how well it worked based on if the target is still moving or not after firing. If no, you got a good shot and they should be dead. Maybe fire a couple extra rounds to be sure. If yes, you missed the sweet spot or the target as a whole. Try again. If it still doesn't work, approach the target differently. Maybe you're too far to line up a shot, or firing with the enemy too close to the crosshair given the time it takes for them and the bullet to move. Try a new aiming strategy until you find one that starts having noticing impacts on the enemy ship (i.e. worse flying indicating loss of thrust/important parts with lots of weight, debris being left behind the ship, large explosions when certain components are destroyed, etc.) The railgun is basically a ship mounted sniper rifle; it is meant to be difficult to aim but destructive when used properly. It might not have damage numbers or a critical hit sound attached, but you can still tell when you do damage
 

Cavilier210

Veteran endo
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
245
#18
Maybe I'm just stupid, maybe most people can get better at shooting by blindfolding themselves and shooting in the dark, I guess i should live with it, because I'm too dumb to become a better shot under those conditions. Maybe I should take up knitting, at least I can see my own improvement in that case, and at least I wouldn't be as bored as i was during that pvp event, and because I'll know my time is actually spent improving.
Taking a victim stance and making this all about you is not conducive to a discussion going anywhere. Hyperbole's are also not helping.

You don't have distance, which also make lining up a target harder. Without knowing about the ship you're looking at beforehand, you don't know for certain whether that ship is right next to you, or a mile away.

Lasers flash when they hit, rail guns leave a huge blue mark on the opponent ship. Autocannon explode when they hit. The thing you want is already there if you pay attention. However, without knowing the range to a target, getting that angle right is going to take a few shots anyway. however, the RC is basically point right at the enemy and fire. Maybe aim a ship length ahead or two. But RC are not fighter versus fighter weapons. Thats the job of lasers and AC. Most enemies at the PvP event were fighters.
 

Bob Dole

Active endo
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
31
#19
Taking a victim stance and making this all about you is not conducive to a discussion going anywhere. Hyperbole's are also not helping.
lasers flash when they hit, rail guns leave a huge blue mark on the opponent ship. Autocannon explode when they hit. The thing you want is already there if you pay attention. However, without knowing the range to a target, getting that angle right is going to take a few shots anyway. however, the RC is basically point right at the enemy and fire. Maybe aim a ship length ahead or two. But RC are not fighter versus fighter weapons. Thats the job of lasers and AC. Most enemies at the PvP event were fighters.
I was attempting to be as unmistakably sarcastic as humanly possible but looks like I failed :( I apologize for making you think otherwise, it wasn't my intention.

For the second point, If you can see the effect of the damage you dealt to a ship from nearly 5km away with your naked eye, while both of you are moving at 150 m/s , then you should try out Guinness world records, because I think the current record holder Veronica Seider is about to be dethroned by you as the human with the greatest eyesight.

If you spent an hour and a half in the combat event, and never got direct confirmation you hit a target, and at no point thought to tweak your aiming behavior, that is on you, not the weapon. You tell if the gun worked or not and how well it worked based on if the target is still moving or not after firing. If no, you got a good shot and they should be dead. Maybe fire a couple extra rounds to be sure. If yes, you missed the sweet spot or the target as a whole. Try again. If it still doesn't work, approach the target differently. Maybe you're too far to line up a shot, or firing with the enemy too close to the crosshair given the time it takes for them and the bullet to move. Try a new aiming strategy until you find one that starts having noticing impacts on the enemy ship (i.e. worse flying indicating loss of thrust/important parts with lots of weight, debris being left behind the ship, large explosions when certain components are destroyed, etc.) The railgun is basically a ship mounted sniper rifle; it is meant to be difficult to aim but destructive when used properly. It might not have damage numbers or a critical hit sound attached, but you can still tell when you do damage
Since there are 2 of you in here with such amazing visual prowess, I'm still curious why you two haven't claimed the record from Veronica Seider, because my dumb old human eyes can't seem to see ship damage from nearly 5km away, let alone a small mark caused by a gunshot.

Didn't notice that they updated it. 2km for RC
The range is not 2km either, keep trying you are getting warmer, and please keep giving me advice, I think your next guess/advice will be right, i can feel it.

-----------
Some people seem to either have super human eyesight, or don't know much about the weapon, such as it's range, speed, and it's effect when it hits something/or all of the above at once.

I am not a super human either so this advice is not helping me sadly because I still got crappy old non superman eyeballs. If superman or batman is reading this, then take notes, because I think this is meant for you.

Perhaps in the future when they develop biotech eyeballs for me I'll be able to get on your level, until then I'm sorry to disappoint, because I don't think ordinary non augmented humans like me will ever be able to see a tiny laser impact an object almost 5km away, let alone improve without any feedback that what they are doing is working :-&
 
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five

Master endo
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
279
#20
My advice: Practice in WarThunder flying planes, not in arcade mode and also not in simulation, since that is just a pain in the ass, try realistic. You dont have a radical that shows you where you have to shoot and you got to lead your bullets on your own
 
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