Are we getting any toold to finding other players?

[Tomasz]

Just as title indicates, i would like to know if there are any works on giving players any means of locating pother activ ships in space to attack.
From frozenbytes actions and words im concerned that they don;t want any ganking to even be possible.
Will we get tools to attack someone who don;t want to be attacked or this game is heading towards opt in/out pvp as increasing safe zones and making rules forbidding chokepoint camping.
Opt in pvp would seriously SUCK.

 

[LauriFB]

This is a planned feature in the roadmap: Radiation mechanics. Coming during this year.

 

[Tomasz]

Oh, that's great to know.Are yoou ready to give any details on how it's planned to work from users perspective?

 

[LauriFB]

Certain actions, devices and cargo are more radiant than others. For example we have planned:

• Generator explosion can be detected very far away, likely 500-1000 km (so ongoing fights can be spotted easily)
• A running generator can be seen moderate distance away
• Batteries and solar won't radiate
• Certain dust clouds can hide some of the radiation
• Some ores will radiate once extracted from the asteroid
• Capital ship actions can be seen from long distances

Keep in mind that feature details can change when we enter development.

I'd also point that the feature works both ways: a miner can use it to spot incoming pirates. Miner in the other hand when mining is likely not causing much if at all radiation, so it's not like the feature is going to just increase one way pvp.

 

[Womble]

There's a fairly recent thread

Certain actions, devices and cargo are more radiant than others. For example we have planned:

• Generator explosion can be detected very far away, likely 500-1000 km (so ongoing fights can be spotted easily)
• A running generator can be seen moderate distance away
• Batteries and solar won't radiate
• Certain dust clouds can hide some of the radiation
• Some ores will radiate once extracted from the asteroid
• Capital ship actions can be seen from long distances

Keep in mind that feature details can change when we enter development.

I'd also point that the feature works both ways: a miner can use it to spot incoming pirates. Miner in the other hand when mining is likely not causing much if at all radiation, so it's not like the feature is going to just increase one way pvp.

I reckon "energetic activity" ought to be detectable at "proportionate" ranges, so weapon fire and thruster output should add to a signature. And an active solution, with passive means of mitigation would be a valuable flipside to the gameplay of detection vs evasion. The clash of "Run silent, run deep" and "See it. Kill it. Leave quickly." could be an exciting part of the game, and a profession that skilled practitioners of could make a name for themselves.

 

[Bracaster]

Miner in the other hand when mining is likely not causing much if at all radiation, so it's not like the feature is going to just increase one way pvp.

I really appreciate that this consideration is being made Lauri. While i ramble on the needed advent of avenues for pvp on another thread, i also recognize the need for the resource gathering to be able to operate with some autonomy.

I also like the concept of countermeasures to radiation emission that could be available (at considerable cost and difficulty perhaps). Solar and ion propulsion thrusters (if not already discussed) might radiate less than solar with batts and manuvering thrusters (edit - something like a solar sail might radiate nothing at all. Forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

Solo players and smaller crews will enjoy the opportunity to mitigate damage in this regard. I very much enjoy that particular aspect of pvp. It is important to offer the possibility for one to level the playing field when the appropriate effort has been invested.

As an example for comparison. In Ark, if a small tribe was unable to gather appropriate artifacts to unlock boss fights and beat the boss, they will never unlock Tek. With out Tek they will experience a much higher level of difficulty in defending themselves at all times in all maps. IMO that was the biggest hurdle for achieving longevity as a solo player. I would estimate that challenge alone was the number 1 leading contributor to the formation of very large alpha tribes and likely the reason why small tribes or solo on official were basically considered suicide in Ark.

Its my limited opinion that the opportunity should be available to defend against the un-invested pirate (freshie) that joins for the soul purpose of simply damaging what he doesn't care about. Many pro pirates are serious about their expectations of their opponents. Actually don't want to shoot fish in a barrel, many are good players and want a good fight first and foremost. Distinguishing between the aforementioned and the latter represents a considerable challenge.

I apologize for all my references to Ark, this will be my last observation. At over 8k hours there I witnessed a strange phenom evolve very slowly over the last 6 years which occurred within the alpha tribe communities (by no means the rule). Very many of them have began cooperating to help perpetuate the combat. Literally switching sides, everyone knows, nobody is angry and then enjoy a good fight against their friends. Its encouraging to see take place when it does. So much more enjoyable to witness than the emotional turmoil of animosity. Many of them pronounce that Ark's pvp model is too difficult for most game developers to follow today. Please know that i'm not assuming that SB is attempting to do so.

Just want to add, that i'm having a blast. I sincerely haven't felt this passionate about a game in nearly 15 years. I do enjoy what we have going. Please keep up the great work all around. thx for time and attention.

 

[Kruzer]

There is no need or purpose for 'piracy' in this game. It doesn't even make sense from a lore wise perspective. There are plenty of PvP opportunities in other aspects of the game. In most of these games piracy is bs and just an excuse to grief. I seriously doubt our friend the OP gives a shit about cargo it is about the PK and that's fine. But, game after game of this type is polluted with so called pirates whining to the dev to create some sort of mechanism to serve them up kills and that killing other players is too difficult. Detection should not be a thing anywhere inside the rings. Above or below the ring, sure, but no way should it be a thing inside the ring. If so, then I'd want to see clouds removed.

I don't see how piracy fits in this game but if it is going to be a thing, then the dev had better make it a thing and that means the outlaw lifestyle has outlaw consequences. Things like banishment from Origin or any other safe zone and your name in great big red letters. Bases become 'pirate bases' which means things like harder to see/detect but no safe zone. You are fair game for anyone, anywhere. Pirating means you are public enemy number one, and that should mean something. You don't see the Somali Pirates operating out of their bases right next door to Annapolis.

 

[Tomasz]

There is no need or purpose for 'piracy' in this game. It doesn't even make sense from a lore wise perspective. There are plenty of PvP opportunities in other aspects of the game. In most of these games piracy is bs and just an excuse to grief. I seriously doubt our friend the OP gives a shit about cargo it is about the PK and that's fine. But, game after game of this type is polluted with so called pirates whining to the dev to create some sort of mechanism to serve them up kills and that killing other players is too difficult. Detection should not be a thing anywhere inside the rings. Above or below the ring, sure, but no way should it be a thing inside the ring. If so, then I'd want to see clouds removed.

I don't see how piracy fits in this game but if it is going to be a thing, then the dev had better make it a thing and that means the outlaw lifestyle has outlaw consequences. Things like banishment from Origin or any other safe zone and your name in great big red letters. Bases become 'pirate bases' which means things like harder to see/detect but no safe zone. You are fair game for anyone, anywhere. Pirating means you are public enemy number one, and that should mean something. You don't see the Somali Pirates operating out of their bases right next door to Annapolis.

When there are no chances to loose your stuff, and mining is completely safe resources are abundand , useless and economy cannot exist.
Also where the **** you see those abundant opportunities to pvp? Finding anyone to FIGHt (not jsut to kil but legit fight) is so difficult even streamers on twitch gave up.
TWhen you look at streams there is only building and mining.When anyone tries to get pvp it ends up flying around for hours before finding one short fight .

 

[Tomasz]

Pvp and piracy ADDs alot of gameplay that is apperently too much for you to understand.
It adds meaningful diplomacy for faction.It allows for Policing rp aspect of factions.It allows villan/hero gameplay, meaningful lrolepley for those who want to engage in it. It allows for negotiations and actual interactions betwen players, not jsut with NPC market.ANd it makes proper ship designs meaningfull , and more than just "slap thrusters on frame with crates".
Also how about group convoys and group mining.When everything is safe it makes no sense to even group really.
On the other hand when you can be jumped by some small pirate ship : now suddenly having 3 buddies with extra eyes and guns, makes much more sense,
How about convoys? with no piracy factions don;t need convoys, with piracy valuable transports need organization with protection and stuff.

 

[Womble]

There is no need or purpose for 'piracy' in this game. It doesn't even make sense from a lore wise perspective. There are plenty of PvP opportunities in other aspects of the game. In most of these games piracy is bs and just an excuse to grief. I seriously doubt our friend the OP gives a shit about cargo it is about the PK and that's fine. But, game after game of this type is polluted with so called pirates whining to the dev to create some sort of mechanism to serve them up kills and that killing other players is too difficult. Detection should not be a thing anywhere inside the rings. Above or below the ring, sure, but no way should it be a thing inside the ring. If so, then I'd want to see clouds removed.

I don't see how piracy fits in this game but if it is going to be a thing, then the dev had better make it a thing and that means the outlaw lifestyle has outlaw consequences. Things like banishment from Origin or any other safe zone and your name in great big red letters. Bases become 'pirate bases' which means things like harder to see/detect but no safe zone. You are fair game for anyone, anywhere. Pirating means you are public enemy number one, and that should mean something. You don't see the Somali Pirates operating out of their bases right next door to Annapolis.

Piracy totally fits in the game. Pretty much everything you've said is wrong, because you're projecting. If you want law, you're going to have to support it. Either by helping the lawmen with their economy, or uphoding it yourself. There is no Annapolis. The safe zones are gamist constructs to support the PvP-negative player's need for a space where they don't have to think about self-defense.

In fact, in this game, "piracy" kinda doesn't exist, except in how those who are suppressing it define it, since there is no law. It's just predation. So maybe there's the "law of the jungle" once you're outside the safe zone. If you don't want to get pirated, there is a 100% sure fire way of ensuring that you don't: do not leave the safe zone. But if you want whatever benefits you perceive there to be that live in the danger zone, you have to put your stuff on the line.

Detection works both ways. A roving pirate with no "signature suppression" is going to be visible from a mile off. If you see one, stop using that noisy mining laser, turn off your reactor and ghost away on batteries. Either you'll drop off the raider's scope, or you'll never have appeared in the first place. E. Zee.

 

[Kruzer]

I've been killed twice. Both times it was while I repairing my ship. Both times the cargo was left and I retrieved it a few hours later. So it was straight up griefing. Guess what, I'm ok with that. The problem I have is with these sniveling griefers whining that they want the devs to furnish them with an easy button. Get bent. If you've ever hunted for real you'll know that the real challenge is finding the prey. Of course that's real hunting and not that pathetic game farm stuff that's gotten popular down in the US.

 

[Vanidar]

I've been killed twice. Both times it was while I repairing my ship. Both times the cargo was left and I retrieved it a few hours later. So it was straight up griefing. Guess what, I'm ok with that. The problem I have is with these sniveling griefers whining that they want the devs to furnish them with an easy button. Get bent. If you've ever hunted for real you'll know that the real challenge is finding the prey. Of course that's real hunting and not that pathetic game farm stuff that's gotten popular down in the US.

It's griefing simply because they didn't take your stuff? What kind of mental gymnastics...

Did you elect to leave the safezone and accept the risk of pvp by checking the box in your settings?
Did you consider they may have just deemed your cargo as garbage after they looked through it and elected not to take anything?
Did you have an acceptable level of situational awareness when you were in said "dangerous area" to watch out when leaving your ship?

If you respond, please answer all 3 of those with a simple "yes or no". If not, I won't respond to anything you say.

Any. Kind. Of. PVP. In. A. PVP. Zone. Is. Not. Griefing. You had so many opportunities to influence the situation before you got killed, yet you seem to only want to focus on just how pathetic the other human is. Why are you in a place where death is possible if you don't want to die? Who cares if they find your stuff valuable or not after the fact? Have some self-awareness. You're calling people whiners while you have a very obviously emotionally charged rant calling other humans "sniveling griefers" and then indirectly called an entire country of people pathetic. I'd rather be the so-called whiner than the latter.

People don't want an easy button. They want to not fly around for 3 hours scanning the ENTIRETY OF SPACE using only their eyeballs. I want to be able to scan and see what's out there and I want those people to also be able to see me. It's a balanced system, play and counterplay. You have plenty of options to avoid getting detected or even putting yourself outside a safezone where you can be damaged at all, but then again, this is more about stifling other people than your own options, right?

 

[Kruzer]

1. Yes, I knew the risks and I wasn't the least bit salty about the loss.
2. Well the cargo in question was about 20 stacks of Aegisium on the edge of the safe zone. So hardly 'Garbage'. Also that was back when ore was a bit more valuable.
3. Yes. But sooner or later you have to focus on the repair.

I actually don't really want you to 'respond' I don't care. You seem to think you have a right to targets, you don't. IMO, the devs made a mistake when they made resources widespread and largely evenly distributed. But that's how they designed it and it doesn't suit the style of play you seem to want. Also, as I said in my first post, I'd be fine with some kind of radar that works out side the rings. Players fly above and below the rings so I can see it being a reasonable trade off between avoiding asteroid strikes vs accepting a higher probability of being intercepted.

I think you are having trouble with comprehension. My issue is with the crying to make hunting down players easy with radar. So so called PvP'rs aren't assured a kill every time they go out on the hunt too bad. You're like and Elk hunter who wants to go after the Elk that have radio receivers on them. If you want combat just get in your ship and tool around with your transponder on, sooner or later you'll get action. Of course it'll be a little more challenging than sneaking up on some unarmed ship. But I guess your fearing the potential loss. The game is about building star bases and sieges. If the devs wanted what you are after they would have designed and marketed the game differently. I haven't seen anything where they've stated they want a cockpit version of Eve.

Stifling options?? If by 'options' you mean petty cowardice then sure, I don't mind seeing that stifled. I certainly don't see the game suffering too much with out it.

 

[Rhade]

There is no need or purpose for 'piracy' in this game. It doesn't even make sense from a lore wise perspective. There are plenty of PvP opportunities in other aspects of the game. In most of these games piracy is bs and just an excuse to grief. I seriously doubt our friend the OP gives a shit about cargo it is about the PK and that's fine. But, game after game of this type is polluted with so called pirates whining to the dev to create some sort of mechanism to serve them up kills and that killing other players is too difficult. Detection should not be a thing anywhere inside the rings. Above or below the ring, sure, but no way should it be a thing inside the ring. If so, then I'd want to see clouds removed.

I don't see how piracy fits in this game but if it is going to be a thing, then the dev had better make it a thing and that means the outlaw lifestyle has outlaw consequences. Things like banishment from Origin or any other safe zone and your name in great big red letters. Bases become 'pirate bases' which means things like harder to see/detect but no safe zone. You are fair game for anyone, anywhere. Pirating means you are public enemy number one, and that should mean something. You don't see the Somali Pirates operating out of their bases right next door to Annapolis.

Lore?

This is space. People are endoskeletons. There is no lore, you potato.

There are plenty of PvP opportunities? Where?

Griefing is not killing people. Griefing is not PvP.

This game will have non-consentual PvP, and that does not make it griefing. If you don't like it, stay in the safe zone. You literally can't be hurt inside there. People don't need to prove their playstyle is worthy to you, and you don't get to gatekeep what kind of PvP is worthwhile.

 

[J.D.]

1. Yes, I knew the risks and I wasn't the least bit salty about the loss.
2. Well the cargo in question was about 20 stacks of Aegisium on the edge of the safe zone. So hardly 'Garbage'. Also that was back when ore was a bit more valuable.
3. Yes. But sooner or later you have to focus on the repair.

I actually don't really want you to 'respond' I don't care. You seem to think you have a right to targets, you don't. IMO, the devs made a mistake when they made resources widespread and largely evenly distributed. But that's how they designed it and it doesn't suit the style of play you seem to want. Also, as I said in my first post, I'd be fine with some kind of radar that works out side the rings. Players fly above and below the rings so I can see it being a reasonable trade off between avoiding asteroid strikes vs accepting a higher probability of being intercepted.

I think you are having trouble with comprehension. My issue is with the crying to make hunting down players easy with radar. So so called PvP'rs aren't assured a kill every time they go out on the hunt too bad. You're like and Elk hunter who wants to go after the Elk that have radio receivers on them. If you want combat just get in your ship and tool around with your transponder on, sooner or later you'll get action. Of course it'll be a little more challenging than sneaking up on some unarmed ship. But I guess your fearing the potential loss. The game is about building star bases and sieges. If the devs wanted what you are after they would have designed and marketed the game differently. I haven't seen anything where they've stated they want a cockpit version of Eve.

Stifling options?? If by 'options' you mean petty cowardice then sure, I don't mind seeing that stifled. I certainly don't see the game suffering too much with out it.

Radiation tech is coming. So guess you’ll just have to accept it. Griefing is a manipulative word. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. One could argue that war itself is griefing. Why? Because the point is to crush the enemy. Take the resources, take the ships, cripple them over whatever reason. So, what’s the difference in war, or just some random person shooting you out in space? In my perspective, there isn’t much difference. Just like these guys said, you consent to danger when you cross that line. Name call all you want. It won’t stop, because we consider it fun. That’s just the way it is. Won’t change. But, you do have a safe zone where the devs uphold strict rules to protect players from anything uncomfortable what. So. Ever. I have personally seen them react veeery quickly to shenanigans inside the safe zone. The devs hammer them quickly. So, safe zone is your place with what kind of play style you wanna play. Otherwise, you are more than welcome to slap some guns on your ship, and join the fun. You know what separates a helpless miner, to a stronger one? A gun in your hand. Buy one. No one is stopping you, but you. At the point where this game gets to working better, you know what content will bring in masses? Pvp. The streamers will make awesome pvp content, and people get exited, and download. Just the way it is. It won’t be going anywhere.

 

[Bracaster]

I've been killed twice. Both times it was while I repairing my ship. Both times the cargo was left and I retrieved it a few hours later. So it was straight up griefing. Guess what, I'm ok with that.

1. Yes, I knew the risks and I wasn't the least bit salty about the loss.

Please consider what you've presented here Kruzer. I'm not meaning to pile on, but your referencing them as "pathetic" or "sniveling" "griefers" as you extrapolate upon their unknown intentions. Your second statement appears to be pretty disingenuous. I sure hope i never end up in combat with you.

Lets be honest here. Its no bloody fun losing your ship. No one enjoys it. But casting the label griefer with disparagement is not evidence to me.

I'm beginning to think we need the SB devs to craft two distinctly different server groups. One for PVE and one for PVP. Otherwise anything short of telegraphing your intentions (but even then) to your advisory before attacking will be called "GRIEFING" . What would you have had them do @Kruzer? With out knowing if they found your ship to not be repairable and couldn't haul the assets. I've watched a number of pirates negotiate a deal, but text is sloppy for that at the moment. Prox chat should eventually provide more opportunities for diplomacy.

The reason why players on official ark don't proclaim "griefer" anymore on pvp servers is they will be laughed off the server. PVE server instance might be the only way. Maybe could load assets over to pvp on a timer? If its on the PVP server then its cut and dried. Take a chance, shit yer pants.

 

[Womble]

I actually don't really want you to 'respond' I don't care. You seem to think you have a right to targets, you don't. IMO, the devs made a mistake when they made resources widespread and largely evenly distributed.

You're talking like the basic building blocks are the only resources that will be in the finished game. They aren't. So probably not a good plan to go about drawing conclusions from just the current state of play, when you are either fully aware, or wilfully ignorant of the eventual intentions. Sure you might not like it now, but that's fine. No need to play the entire development path of the game from 1st day of EA to final xpack. Shelve it and come back when it's a game you want to play.

My issue is with the crying to make hunting down players easy with radar.

Projection, much?

 

[Womble]

I'm beginning to think we need the SB devs to craft two distinctly different server groups. One for PVE and one for PVP.

What would be the point of a PvE server though? There's literally nothing to do except mine, design and build. And you can do that perfectly well on the current server, as far as it goes, and it would be an incredibly frustrating experience on a "finished" PvE server where all the gas clouds are taken and you have no way of obtaining the scarce resources they produce because the first-movers are "solo players" who don't give a good goddamn about the rest of the server (and why should they - they don't need anyone else?).

Also, it's not the game the devs want to make... so it's probably not going to happen unless they think they need the income and that it will provide any, which I think is questionable.

As you point out is the case in ARK, bleaters get laughed at on PvP servers, so they don't. Eventually, that'll be the case in SB, too.

 

[Bracaster]

What would be the point of a PvE server though? There's literally nothing to do except mine, design and build. And you can do that perfectly well on the current server, as far as it goes, and it would be an incredibly frustrating experience on a "finished" PvE server where all the gas clouds are taken and you have no way of obtaining the scarce resources they produce because the first-movers are "solo players" who don't give a good goddamn about the rest of the server (and why should they - they don't need anyone else?).

Also, it's not the game the devs want to make... so it's probably not going to happen unless they think they need the income and that it will provide any, which I think is questionable.

As you point out is the case in ARK, bleaters get laughed at on PvP servers, so they don't. Eventually, that'll be the case in SB, too.

I was being a bit "tongue-in-cheek" there. I agree it would be somewhat pointless and redundant, that it would only specifically serve those who claim grievous injury in a pvp environment. It is illogical, but would definitely solve the issue. That being distinctly the plight of the player who claims to be unable to progress in the pvp/pve environment that we currently have due to "griefing". Once completely removed from possibility of danger, progression can resume and there should be no reason to complain of grief.

If anyone is disqualified from playing this game based on the point of "griefing" (a very realistic advent phenom i've witnessed countless times in other games). Then the whole community would suffer an injustice of game play imbalance that i personally will not enjoy whatsoever and would cause many to leave. It SHOULD be cut and dried. Voxels can be created and in pvp area voxels can be destroyed with out prejudice. The symantics involved in the arguements that ensue as a result of a claim of "griefing" are near impossible to arbitrate fairly. It ultimately is represented in an equation with non-correlative values and variables that are unsolvable.