Incorporating an in-game Ship design element into the real-time MMO, and abolishing a separate Creative mode

Vampiricdust

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A lot of this thread seems predicated on the idea that forcing people into the game world will make the game better for you.

What about the people that just want to tinker with the physics and engineering mechanics at their own pace? I see no reason not to let them. They're paying the entry fee all the same to have their own fun, not just to be your world decorations.
There is no game outside of the online portion. It's a sandbox without saving of any kind from what I have seen. You'll be wasting hours of play time for nothing over and over again. The point is they can do that in the game, where what they do can be saved and things can actually progress from their work, even if they don't use it.
 
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If players want a single player sandbox experience there are plenty of other games on the market that do just that. If someone is looking for a single player physics experience I recommend Space engineers, Besieged, ksp, BeamNG.drive, and numerous others. peopel are here because the MMO aspect.

A lot of this thread seems predicated on the idea that forcing people into the game world will make the game better for you.

What about the people that just want to tinker with the physics and engineering mechanics at their own pace? I see no reason not to let them. They're paying the entry fee all the same to have their own fun, not just to be your world decorations.
just because they are in the MMO world does not mean they cannot tinker with the physics and engineering mechanic at their own pace. The safe zone exist, meaning they can take their time.
 

Vexus

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A lot of this thread seems predicated on the idea that forcing people into the game world will make the game better for you.

What about the people that just want to tinker with the physics and engineering mechanics at their own pace? I see no reason not to let them. They're paying the entry fee all the same to have their own fun, not just to be your world decorations.
The idea is it would make the game better for everyone, and there's always the possibility to interact with someone, so they may get emotionally pulled into some cause when they didn't think they wanted to participate in the first place. The same systems can be developed for you to be able to tinker with the engineering and mechanics of the game at your own pace, but in doing so, your actions also act as world decorations making the game feel alive.

"I see no reason not to let them." One reason is because an MMO survives by having players around, and if the game defines itself as an MMO and then 50% of the players go into the offline mode, or worse, if 95% of the players form their own dead server, it devalues the promise of the MMO component. The entry fee paid is also voluntarily paid by the player, based on what the game offers. Not everyone can be made happy; some people will dislike the ships or the colors or drag in space or so many other things with the game. I default to the position which I think is most beneficial for the growth of the game. If the game is an MMO, and a player's intention is to sit offline and build a ship, the MMO component never has a chance to grow with that player's input.

We have evidence that this kind of system leads to immense meaningful gameplay; in EVE and SWG for example among others. If you wanted to play, you had to play the one and only game universe. You'd never have seen 1000's of people fighting in EVE, or hear of dramatic stories of loss and gain, if people could escape to their own universe. When you're forced to deal with the one universe, you have to make a choice - do you want this gameplay or not? If you want that gameplay, you can only get it in the one place it's offered on the one live universe. There gives the chance that a player will be drawn in to interacting with other players, and the game world stays alive and thriving. I liken it to a nuclear reaction, where a critical mass of players has to exist to generate enough activity to self-sustain. Many games cut short that possibility - either because their netcode doesn't allow that critical mass, or because the servers cannot handle the load, or because the players just never really got involved enough.

If you as a player want to engineer and tinker; doing so around everyone else even if you never talk to them provides value as people see some random robot working on a ship. You might not like being window dressing, but that's reality. If you go out in the world, people look at you. They might simply see what you're wearing and that could influence their entire day. WoW for example, people would see your shoulder-slot item and say "that's cool, I want that." If you could have obtained that gear offline, no one else gets inspired to try and get it too. This is very important that these little things be allowed to exist in the MMO space where the shape or style of your ship - which you are tinkering with without regard to anyone else - inspires the next best fighter design that shapes the future of the game world. You matter, even as a random tinkerer/builder, even if you never directly interact with someone. Good chance though, that since you're connected, online, you will interact with others, helping to hit that critical mass of activity.

Another feature of online-only is players can't game the system by testing all mechanics offline. If there is the ability to freely spawn ship parts offline, then there's no reason to mine for materials or use the market or any of that bulk content. You'd just do it all offline, interacting with no one, and you'd be able to test every system and every game mechanic heavily in this artificial world. This is fine for a server-based game like SE, since their networking tech cannot handle it, but if we make sure players in an MMO are all held to the same rules; that their testing and so on has to be done in the same universe as everyone else, we achieve a more fair gameplay system where no one can get ahead by bypassing the time it takes to acquire things and test things. The gameplay becomes much more organic as people are forced to do all their tinkering and testing in the one game universe, and the game world grows with every interaction.

I think it's very important for a game to define itself. Is this an MMO? If so it should aim to achieve that. It can always fall back onto individual servers if for some reason the main MMO component somehow didn't work. But if the MMO component wasn't given the best chance for success from the start, because most players fell away to offline servers, the game never had the chance to become great anyway. That's why many of us see the value in online only gameplay.

And again, I'd reiterate the idea that you will still be able to do all the testing and tinkering - just around others. That would be the best solution for giving the game the best chance to succeed at being an MMO.
 

Recatek

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Testing your designs in an offline sandbox has no impact on the game world. You aren't carrying resources between settings, you're just iterating on a concept. You still have to procure the resources (potentially by interacting with other people) to build the thing in the main universe. It's a simulator that lets you try out weird designs without paying an undue cost for it. In a game that's all about unbridled creativity, it seems strange to take away such a useful testing tool. Moreover, it gives a pretty significant advantage to large factions who not only have more resources to build the ships, but now have the double bonus of having the spare resources to more rapidly iterate on them.

Say someone wants to make their own arcade game in a station. I think it's unreasonable to expect them to go out and mine resources just to experiment on how to make it. Sitting in their own lot, they aren't doing anything for you, if you can even seen them (remember, station lots are semi-instanced). They still need to get the resources to build it in the end. They can still offer their services in building one for you if you'd like. What you are asking for is for them to have to now invest some additional order of magnitude of their time to experiment on this thing, primarily because you want the chance to see moving robot decoration puppets when you look at a station that you may not even spend that much time at.
 
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A) Say you enjoy playing with other people. you have good time popping in to station next door and having a quick chat. And that you enjoy designing ships.
now you want to design, build, and test ship but requires resources so you gather resources and after hours of work you get the resources and build your ship, but it needs some more work so you go back out and gather more resources dedicating even more time to getting your ship right so you can sell it to other player. but all this time you are having a good time meeting new people as you talk with the own of the lot next door maybe join their alliance. After tons of work you get your ship done and ready to go. and while the ship you built may not be the best in the sky your new friend and allies are jealous. this took ( 12 hours of work)

B) now on the other hand if you had know about the loop hole of the sandbox mode:
after and 3 hours of boring work with no one to talk too you finish your version and pronounce it ready to fly. then join the MMO side and get to fly off into space and actually play the game. (3 hours of work)

which player had more fun? which route got a result quicker? which route is better for game health? which route would large groups want their builders to take? which route is more interesting?
if the sandbox mode is included it would bully out more fun and interesting game play options.
how can you say a sandbox mode has no impact on the game world when it will force every builder, scientist, engineer, or designer to test in sandbox or be redundant.
 

CalenLoki

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If players want a single player sandbox experience there are plenty of other games on the market that do just that. If someone is looking for a single player physics experience I recommend Space engineers, Besieged, ksp, BeamNG.drive, and numerous others. peopel are here because the MMO aspect.



just because they are in the MMO world does not mean they cannot tinker with the physics and engineering mechanic at their own pace. The safe zone exist, meaning they can take their time.
Wrong.
Some people are here for new unique building system. And multiplier (but not MMO, just the part about using the creations, without wasting time on the grind)
None of the mentioned games offer that.
SE has oversimplified building system
Besiege has terrible balance
Ksp is singleplayer
Beamng has no vehicle designer, so it's totally missed
FtD has so powerful AI that there is no manual combat
DcB has no combat
EgS is oversimplified

Just because you focuse on MMO, doesn't mean that everyone does. Or even majority.
 

CalenLoki

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A) Say you enjoy playing with other people. you have good time popping in to station next door and having a quick chat. And that you enjoy designing ships.
now you want to design, build, and test ship but requires resources so you gather resources and after hours of work you get the resources and build your ship, but it needs some more work so you go back out and gather more resources dedicating even more time to getting your ship right so you can sell it to other player. but all this time you are having a good time meeting new people as you talk with the own of the lot next door maybe join their alliance. After tons of work you get your ship done and ready to go. and while the ship you built may not be the best in the sky your new friend and allies are jealous. this took ( 12 hours of work)

B) now on the other hand if you had know about the loop hole of the sandbox mode:
after and 3 hours of boring work with no one to talk too you finish your version and pronounce it ready to fly. then join the MMO side and get to fly off into space and actually play the game. (3 hours of work)

which player had more fun? which route got a result quicker? which route is better for game health? which route would large groups want their builders to take? which route is more interesting?
if the sandbox mode is included it would bully out more fun and interesting game play options.
how can you say a sandbox mode has no impact on the game world when it will force every builder, scientist, engineer, or designer to test in sandbox or be redundant.
Answers:
B, if player is interested in ship design and use, and he's not forced to do things he's not interested in
B. Obviously
B. Because players waste less time on grind and more on things new and unique. Thus they don't burn out too quickly
Why do you focus on large groups? Small groups should be jus as viable.
B. For me. But that's quite subjective.

Show me successful vehicle engineering multiplier combat game without offline designer.
 

Recatek

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You can invite a friend or two to the sandbox to design ships with you, so I'm not sold on the situation where being forced to design your ship with real resources in the main world guarantees you a delightful experience of serendipitous social encounters. Couldn't I have just as much fun experimenting with the friends I already have? If anything I'd rather take less time to do the design work and spend that time enjoying flying around in that ship with my buddies (or serendipitous strangers).
 

Jetthetank

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You can invite a friend or two to the sandbox to design ships with you, so I'm not sold on the situation where being forced to design your ship with real resources in the main world guarantees you a delightful experience of serendipitous social encounters. Couldn't I have just as much fun experimenting with the friends I already have? If anything I'd rather take less time to do the design work and spend that time enjoying flying around in that ship with my buddies (or serendipitous strangers).
Then that very well may eliminate all the other opportunities of "serendipitous" encounters via the gathering, building, designing of your ships.
my interpretation of your post is that you would rather just enjoy being out there flying ships rather than building. which is fine either way.
I would totally agree with you on adding a sandbox testing mode seperate, IF, it was much more difficult to build ingame.
My argument from the start has been to implement a fluid design mechanic integrated with the main game. I dont see why an ingame editor would have to be harder than a sandbox version, I feel that there are aspects that could be improved from a QoL standpoint by being integrated with the game itself.
By limiting the MMO by only experiencing through yourself flying around the universe to rely on those fun adventures. your not gaining anything, your only taking away from the possible #no of available interactions.
The more options and opportunities for interactions in a MMO are the crucial to the development of different playstyles.
 

Azelous

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Wrong.
Some people are here for new unique building system. And multiplier (but not MMO, just the part about using the creations, without wasting time on the grind)
None of the mentioned games offer that.
SE has oversimplified building system
Besiege has terrible balance
Ksp is singleplayer
Beamng has no vehicle designer, so it's totally missed
FtD has so powerful AI that there is no manual combat
DcB has no combat
EgS is oversimplified

Just because you focuse on MMO, doesn't mean that everyone does. Or even majority.
This game is being marketed as an MMO.
 

Azelous

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So if a separate sandbox mode would to be scrapped, would ship designing/testing jobs be acceptable solution? Ie. factions would offer the resources to design and test the ships, and there would be areas/stations dedicated to ship design/testing. I always imagined I'd be building the Empire this way, and there would be great need for a lot of ship designers (and not just warships, all public transport, mining etc. ships also need designers), and the large design/test ranges and factories inside the game world would indeed add up a lot to the universe. But if we would be to scrap or at least postpone sandbox that might guarantee the labor needed for massive progress ... :unsure:
I think this is an invaluable part of the process. If you're going for a living world full of player interaction, having players build around each other creates little random social events that reflects real life. By putting ship building into single player, you cut a large portion of social interaction between players learning about the game together.
 

Atreties

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Testing your designs in an offline sandbox has no impact on the game world.
Yes, it does.

The impact on the game world has been stated and explained in detail over a dozen times in this thread, in multiple posts, in multiple ways.

You can make the argument that the impact is less important than some benefit an offline sandbox would give, but saying it has no impact whatsoever is simply incorrect.
 

Azelous

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Wrong.
Some people are here for new unique building system. And multiplier (but not MMO, just the part about using the creations, without wasting time on the grind)
None of the mentioned games offer that.
SE has oversimplified building system
Besiege has terrible balance
Ksp is singleplayer
Beamng has no vehicle designer, so it's totally missed
FtD has so powerful AI that there is no manual combat
DcB has no combat
EgS is oversimplified

Just because you focuse on MMO, doesn't mean that everyone does. Or even majority.
The point is that MMO players are interacting with each other, but having single player ship building means those players are influenced by players they don't can't interact with.
 

CalenLoki

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Sorry, uninstanced open world MMO. I keep forgetting how many games tack on MMO for funzies.
Nope. Just MMO. And that's very broad term.
Not adding ship editor is quite recent idea, still under consideration.
And there is plenty of semi-instanced places, like rented lots, asteroid delivery stations, ect.
Not to mention that you can't interact with someone who's inside rented lot inside safezone and don't want to. So it's pretty much singleplayer, just one that requires to be online and more tedious.
The point is that MMO players are interacting with each other, but having single player ship building means those players are influenced by players they don't can't interact with.
Yes, you need to interact. But not necessary all the time, with every possible activities.
 

Morrgard

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Nope. Just MMO. And that's very broad term.
Not adding ship editor is quite recent idea, still under consideration.
And there is plenty of semi-instanced places, like rented lots, asteroid delivery stations, ect.
Not to mention that you can't interact with someone who's inside rented lot inside safezone and don't want to. So it's pretty much singleplayer, just one that requires to be online and more tedious.

Yes, you need to interact. But not necessary all the time, with every possible activities.
There will be a ship editor.

there may not be a singleplayer version of it, that is what there is talks off.
 

Kimsemus

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So if a separate sandbox mode would to be scrapped, would ship designing/testing jobs be acceptable solution? Ie. factions would offer the resources to design and test the ships, and there would be areas/stations dedicated to ship design/testing. I always imagined I'd be building the Empire this way, and there would be great need for a lot of ship designers (and not just warships, all public transport, mining etc. ships also need designers), and the large design/test ranges and factories inside the game world would indeed add up a lot to the universe. But if we would be to scrap or at least postpone sandbox that might guarantee the labor needed for massive progress ... :unsure:
Anyone who tells you this is a good idea is trolling. You're creating Rust in space (with no reset) which is going to attract ALL those personality types. You CANNOT ever trust players to use a system how you INTEND. Assume players WILL find a way to break systems to the maximum degree and exploit them to the highest potential so design around that, not intentional use.

And to be honest, if you don't offer a sandbox mode, it's going to be a matter of time before someone rips your code, spoofs an auth server, and runs one themselves for people to join so you might as well just include one, since it sounds like you guys are leaning towards scrapping sandbox, which is a bad, bad idea imo, especially in a game like this, especially when designing functioning ships with complex code will take so long. No one is going to want to sit and lose tons of time and resources because they couldn't get a wire to fit or work right and then get punished for experimenting with designs. Because that is what it is -- punishing iteration and experimentation. There is NO upshot to it.

No one is going to just not abuse the "job" of testing ships in game (IE just stealing them) and you're shunting a TON of unfun work onto players that will require massive wastes of time and resources.

IE, you're putting up a barrier for fun, and that's never good. It's generally concerning the topic of scrapping sandbox is even being broached at this juncture. Most people have long assumed they could design and blueprint in sandbox and produce on the main server but if that's not the case just... setting yourself up for lots of problems.
 
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Jetthetank

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Anyone who tells you this is a good idea is trolling. You're creating Rust in space (with no reset) which is going to attract ALL those personality types. You CANNOT ever trust players to use a system how you INTEND. Assume players WILL find a way to break systems to the maximum degree and exploit them to the highest potential so design around that, not intentional use.

And to be honest, if you don't offer a sandbox mode, it's going to be a matter of time before someone rips your code, spoofs an auth server, and runs one themselves for people to join so you might as well just include one, since it sounds like you guys are leaning towards scrapping sandbox, which is a bad, bad idea imo, especially in a game like this, especially when designing functioning ships with complex code will take so long. No one is going to want to sit and lose tons of time and resources because they couldn't get a wire to fit or work right and then get punished for experimenting with designs. Because that is what it is -- punishing iteration and experimentation. There is NO upshot to it.

No one is going to just not abuse the "job" of testing ships in game (IE just stealing them) and you're shunting a TON of unfun work onto players that will require massive wastes of time and resources.

IE, you're putting up a barrier for fun, and that's never good. It's generally concerning the topic of scrapping sandbox is even being broached at this juncture. Most people have long assumed they could design and blueprint in sandbox and produce on the main server but if that's not the case just... setting yourself up for lots of problems.
I would be inclined to say MOST people are looking forward to playing an MMO, not a ship building simulator (that is what SE is for).
I personally dont see where getting a wire to fit in a sandbox, or inside an MMO shipbuilder ingame is going to make a difference. if it is going to take hrs in one, I dont see how it won't in a sandbox. (maybe there will be a player that could help you make it fit in the station your on?)

"No one is going to just not abuse the "job" of testing ships in game (IE just stealing them) and you're shunting a TON of unfun work onto players that will require massive wastes of time and resources." I wouldnt assume that would happen in a ship design editor, since there is literally nothing to steal. unless you are referring to actually building your ship ingame, which would happen regardless.

It wouldnt be a barrier for fun, if the whole reason of this discussion and thread is for making it MORE fun, in a more integrated, fluid, and immersive experience. And I reiterate, I believe most people are more excited for the MMO player world where you can build ships, not some insave-able sandbox ship builder.
 
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