Incorporating an in-game Ship design element into the real-time MMO, and abolishing a separate Creative mode

[Vexus]

No one is going to want to sit and lose tons of time and resources because they couldn't get a wire to fit or work right and then get punished for experimenting with designs.

With mega-station safe zones and so on, you won't really lose anything. I mean, you're right to some degree, like if you're figuring out how cooling cells work, and your generator overheats and explodes, you're punished for that. But that's how you learn; making mistakes that matter. If touching a hot stove didn't burn you, you might do it a lot. The feedback of 'this was incorrect' is important, and making it matter solidifies that a bit more. In addition, in an offline sandbox environment, you would never be telling someone else to make sure they have the right number of cooling cells on their own generator - no sharing of experience - because you'd assume (and be correct) that everyone just figured all this stuff out for themselves in the offline test environment. This collapses the amount of player interaction that can occur. If someone sees your ship blow a hole in it from an error, maybe they come over and offer help to rebuild. That's not possible in an offline environment. That small interaction has long lasting effects in an online environment that is not possible if everyone escapes to the more efficient offline testing environment.

Your perspective is totally valid; you want to be able to test designs and not be punished in having to rebuild an entire ship from scratch from every mistake. Not everyone has the time. I think the solution for this is still in-game, in a build environment in game where you can do all the same functions except you are there around other people at the very least. The moment you give players the offline environment to iterate and experiment, they will go there, period, out of efficiency. This will drop the amount of interactions on the live server to the point of failure, where there's not enough people getting materials or fighting off pirates. You might be designing a ship and realize you need some thing, some material, and you'll have nowhere to go but to ask another player for help in this matter. This is like a dungeon in WoW, where you need 5 people to do the dungeon. You cannot do it alone and that makes an MMO successful. If you can do it alone, it's not an MMO.

The game needs to decide what it wants to be, and there are trade offs. But I think an in-game way for people to experiment and design ships is fine. There was talk of, if you want to design ships and have lots of resources, maybe the Kingdom offers a lot of access to resources and good pay for every completed ship design. Then you're incentivized to get things done in the live game world, and you're always there able to interact with other players, and your actions reverberate across the game as you find new ideas and share them with your team.

Truly your point is a game cannot satisfy everyone. It has to decide who it is excluding to some degree. I for example don't enjoy single player games. So every single player game on Steam is basically irrelevant to me. Trine4 looks like a good time to spend, only if I'm playing it with friends. If they didn't have the multiplayer co-op option, I wouldn't even look. So every game has to decide their demographic, what their game is, and what will make their game succeed. If Starbase is going to be an MMO, it has to commit to that, or else it never will be an MMO. It will just have that as a slight feature, with empty servers everywhere else.

There is evidence in other games at least that committing to being an MMO can be successful. People do want to do the hard jobs. People want their gameplay to matter. I loved @Jetthetank 's quote who said, "the individual miner knows that every voxel he is mining out is influencing the game because it is those resources that the ship builders need to build the ships that the factions want." If there is no incentive to mine, because no one needs materials to build and test ships, then this all falls apart.

 

[Kimsemus]

I don't disagree with what some of you have said, but I'm telling you: The subset of players who are going to like losing 30% of their resources or whatever fixing a design mistake is a LOT smaller than the players who won't. Spending tremendous amount of time messing with builds in a "live" setting is going to get tedious for a lot of people, especially when the majority of those players are off in their own sov space away from the starter "safezones."

My overall point is this: Players are always going to shortcut around things they don't want to do, will always take the path of least resistance, and if you don't offer a sandbox, they will make one, in some form. Or, they'll develop a webtool for it. Don't believe me? EVE has had Offline Fitting Tools for 15+ years because it's way easier than trying to find the modules and hulls you need in game and wasting tons of time/ISK/effort theorycrafting and moving resources. This doesn't detract from interaction at all -- it simply streamlines an arduous and necessary task.

FrozenByte won't be able to stop these third party tools, and if you're using work as your interaction driver, you're going to fail in that regard in most circumstances. We've orchestrated these kinds of interactions using thousands of our own guys in house in other games, and players will always prefer interactions based around fun versus tedium.

Misplacing say, a "fusion core" and then having to remove it later on, then having to go scrounge around for another one to finish your probably badly designed ship because you're strapped constantly for time and resources isn't fun -- someone will just develop the simucraft for it anyway. You can't escape human nature.

IMO in this regard, FrozenByte should not be trying to reinvent the wheel, and pay attention to how other, similar titles have done it. It's settled science at this point, imo.

Like if you had a testbed mode in the server where you could blueprint stuff and then just fill in the blueprint or have it constructed at a station shipyard? That's fine too. But woe to the groups who are having to waste tons of time and resources "fixing" their ship, especially solo and casual players. Some alternative needs to be presented such as this in the world, if a sandbox isn't offered.

 

[Recatek]

I still have yet to see a compelling reason in this thread to remove sandbox mode that doesn't boil down to "force other players to spend more time doing things tediously so they can be a decorative backdrop for me while I play the game and probably don't even interact with them anyway".

 

[Jetthetank]

I still have yet to see a compelling reason in this thread to remove sandbox mode that doesn't boil down to "force other players to spend more time doing things tediously so they can be a decorative backdrop for me while I play the game and probably don't even interact with them anyway".

I posted this thread so that people could suggest ideas one way or another about this topic, if you dont think there are any valid reasons in these 124 messages for getting rid of a sandbox mode, please give your ideas/reasoning behind why it should be kept.

 

[Recatek]

I have. I believe this is a game that prizes creativity and that being able to rapidly iterate on your ideas is key to that creativity. A sandbox allows people to design their best ships without friction. Ultimately you still need to go through the in-game economy to build the final ships, and so you lose little to nothing in allowing players to more easily design their ships in a set-aside environment that doesn't require tedious resource gathering or manual building. Since the sandbox mode is already said to be cooperative, it's a social experience that allows you to experiment and iterate with your friends, which is fun. If one of the fundamental joys of the game is to make creative and unexpected new designs, it should provide an environment for doing that with minimal obstacles for doing so. Let the game get out of the way and let you come up with innovative ideas, and then only provide a barrier (for economic and balance reasons) when it comes to properly building the ship or device in the main world.

 

[Jetthetank]

I don't disagree with what some of you have said, but I'm telling you: The subset of players who are going to like losing 30% of their resources or whatever fixing a design mistake is a LOT smaller than the players who won't. Spending tremendous amount of time messing with builds in a "live" setting is going to get tedious for a lot of people, especially when the majority of those players are off in their own sov space away from the starter "safezones."

My overall point is this: Players are always going to shortcut around things they don't want to do, will always take the path of least resistance, and if you don't offer a sandbox, they will make one, in some form. Or, they'll develop a webtool for it. Don't believe me? EVE has had Offline Fitting Tools for 15+ years because it's way easier than trying to find the modules and hulls you need in game and wasting tons of time/ISK/effort theorycrafting and moving resources. This doesn't detract from interaction at all -- it simply streamlines an arduous and necessary task.

FrozenByte won't be able to stop these third party tools, and if you're using work as your interaction driver, you're going to fail in that regard in most circumstances. We've orchestrated these kinds of interactions using thousands of our own guys in house in other games, and players will always prefer interactions based around fun versus tedium.

Misplacing say, a "fusion core" and then having to remove it later on, then having to go scrounge around for another one to finish your probably badly designed ship because you're strapped constantly for time and resources isn't fun -- someone will just develop the simucraft for it anyway. You can't escape human nature.

IMO in this regard, FrozenByte should not be trying to reinvent the wheel, and pay attention to how other, similar titles have done it. It's settled science at this point, imo.

Like if you had a testbed mode in the server where you could blueprint stuff and then just fill in the blueprint or have it constructed at a station shipyard? That's fine too. But woe to the groups who are having to waste tons of time and resources "fixing" their ship, especially solo and casual players. Some alternative needs to be presented such as this in the world, if a sandbox isn't offered.

An argument around "players will find ways around it" shouldnt be considered in development in a sense of leaving those features out because of it, because the real gamers that actually want to play the content are the ones that will get hurt, people who are going to circumvent things are going to circumvent thing regardless of whether you remove their targets or leave them, they will find more to circumvent past it.

 

[Kimsemus]

because the real gamers.

Please not this argument. There is no such thing as a real gamer versus a "fake" gamer when it comes to playing a game. People mimnax. Especially "serious" players. They will circumvent whatever you expect a feature or mechanic to do and break it. All multiplayer PVP games are like this.

You should 100% consider the blowback of every design decision you make, or you've not thought it through enough. And catering to a vocal, made up minority of gamers "real gamers" is a great way to kill your game population and hence your gameplay experience in record time.

 

[Jetthetank]

I have. I believe this is a game that prizes creativity and that being able to rapidly iterate on your ideas is key to that creativity. A sandbox allows people to design their best ships without friction. Ultimately you still need to go through the in-game economy to build the final ships, and so you lose little to nothing in allowing players to more easily design their ships in a set-aside environment that doesn't require tedious resource gathering or manual building. Since the sandbox mode is already said to be cooperative, it's a social experience that allows you to experiment and iterate with your friends, which is fun. If one of the fundamental joys of the game is to make creative and unexpected new designs, it should provide an environment for doing that with minimal obstacles for doing so. Let the game get out of the way and let you come up with innovative ideas, and then only provide a barrier (for economic and balance reasons) when it comes to properly building the ship or device in the main world.

Something I just thought about, if there is a sandbox mode, then, that either forces all the players to leave the MMO to design their ships in the Sandbox, or, there would be a way to build your ship in the game more painfully than in the sandbox, making you want to leave the MMO to build your ship in the sandbox, also making it redundant to have both in the game in 1st place.
I think it would be a let down if it was impossible to actually build a ship in the game. but if it is, the above arguments would be true.
Now I see it as more important than ever to have it implemented into the game.
correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Jetthetank]

Please not this argument. There is no such thing as a real gamer versus a "fake" gamer when it comes to playing a game. People mimnax. Especially "serious" players. They will circumvent whatever you expect a feature or mechanic to do and break it. All multiplayer PVP games are like this.

You should 100% consider the blowback of every design decision you make, or you've not thought it through enough. And catering to a vocal, made up minority of gamers "real gamers" is a great way to kill your game population and hence your gameplay experience in record time.

I am talking about the abuntance of players that cheat, exploit, circumvent the content, and troll everyone counter to the games intention.
those are not real gamers in my opinion.

 

[Kimsemus]

I am talking about the abuntance of players that cheat, exploit, circumvent the content, and troll everyone counter to the games intention.
those are not real gamers in my opinion.

That's a false equivocation to who a non-buildmode or sandbox mode affects. I'm not talking about the margin of players who are literally cheating.

And exploiting a game design feature is NOT the same as cheating anyway. Most devs understand this.

The absence of a build/sandbox mode affects all legitimate players.

 

[Recatek]

Again, other players are there to be creative and have fun and design cool things. They aren't there to be window dressing decorations for your gameplay atmosphere. If another player leaves the world temporarily to work on a ship design, that's their prerogative, and if that saves them time then they can later spend more time in the game world later doing more interesting things. Shuffling parts around in a safe zone lot that nobody can even even see due to lot instancing doesn't exactly strike me as peak MMO gameplay to begin with, nor particularly interesting to watch (if you even could). It's all the same if they walked away from the screen to grab a cup of tea and sketch out designs in their notebook. Get the game out of the way and let people be creative, then go back to the game and economy part when it comes to doing meaningful things with that ship in the world.

 

[YakkoForever]

I am curious how did you get the 30% number

The subset of players who are going to like losing 30% of their resources or whatever fixing a design mistake is a LOT smaller than the players who won't.

its like you don't understand how forgiving ship building in this game is. using the example of a reactor in the wrong place. all you need to do is unbolt some parts then move them to the new location. then you just bolt them down and rewire. is that that big a loss? is that hours of progress gone?

when building a ship as long as you remember to stick cooling cells in your reactor and to not hit your feul tanks with a pickaxe there is not 30% loss. hell if your whole ship needs changed you can just unbolt everything and start again.

 

[Jetthetank]

I believe you are taking what I said out of context and saying it is out of context.

I feel like there are good points to both sides here, I personally enjoy an open sandbox to create a ship in.
but I feel like it could be better.

 

[Kimsemus]

I am curious how did you get the 30% number

its like you don't understand how forgiving ship building in this game is. using the example of a reactor in the wrong place. all you need to do is unbolt some parts then move them to the new location. then you just bolt them down and rewire. is that that big a loss? is that hours of progress gone?

when building a ship as long as you remember to stick cooling cells in your reactor and to not hit your feul tanks with a pickaxe there is not 30% loss. hell if your whole ship needs changed you can just unbolt everything and start again.

I think if you're extrapolating on a minor example, you're glossing over the overall point. What I describe is "best case" scenario.

Again, other players are there to be creative and have fun and design cool things. They aren't there to be window dressing decorations for your gameplay atmosphere. If another player leaves the world temporarily to work on a ship design, that's their prerogative, and if that saves them time then they can later spend more time in the game world later doing more interesting things. Shuffling parts around in a safe zone lot that nobody can even even see due to lot instancing doesn't exactly strike me as peak MMO gameplay to begin with, nor particularly interesting to watch (if you even could). It's all the same if they walked away from the screen to grab a cup of tea and sketch out designs in their notebook. Get the game out of the way and let people be creative, then go back to the game and economy part when it comes to doing meaningful things with that ship in the world.

This sums it up perfectly.

 

[CalenLoki]

Something I just thought about, if there is a sandbox mode, then, that either forces all the players to leave the MMO to design their ships in the Sandbox, or, there would be a way to build your ship in the game more painfully than in the sandbox, making you want to leave the MMO to build your ship in the sandbox, also making it redundant to have both in the game in 1st place.
I think it would be a let down if it was impossible to actually build a ship in the game. but if it is, the above arguments would be true.
Now I see it as more important than ever to have it implemented into the game.
correct me if I am wrong.

First things first: "build" and "design" are two completely non-interchangeable words. Of course you could do everything in main world, just less efficient.
Other than that you're mostly correct. Ship designing and testing would be done in mostly streamlined sandbox. As in every single game about vehicle building.

Doesn't matter if it would be hidden in separate game mode or inside closed private rented lot. Both work for me. Both block interactions in the exact same way. Offline has only one ti y advantage of being available when you don't have access to good internet connection.

 

[Jetthetank]

First things first: "build" and "design" are two completely non-interchangeable words. Of course you could do everything in main world, just less efficient.
Other than that you're mostly correct. Ship designing and testing would be done in mostly streamlined sandbox. As in every single game about vehicle building.

Doesn't matter if it would be hidden in separate game mode or inside closed private rented lot. Both work for me. Both block interactions in the exact same way. Offline has only one ti y advantage of being available when you don't have access to good internet connection.

That is a good point, but is this game meant to be played offline?
can you actually boot into the sandbox offline?
Probably, but idk

 

[Bigsby]

Keeping everything online incentivizes player cooperation that would not happen if the sandbox mode is kept. It also forces players to adapt to their circumstances, e.g. if you're a conspicuous large group, develop defenses for your ship factory and create a secure place for people to design ships. If you're a small group, either form an alliance or find a quiet corner and remain unseen. Keeping everything online has a ripple effect on all kinds of gameplay opportunities that would be lost if there is a sandbox mode.

 

[Kimsemus]

Keeping everything online incentivizes player cooperation that would not happen if the sandbox mode is kept. It also forces players to adapt to their circumstances, e.g. if you're a conspicuous large group, develop defenses for your ship factory and create a secure place for people to design ships. If you're a small group, either form an alliance or find a quiet corner and remain unseen. Keeping everything online has a ripple effect on all kinds of gameplay opportunities that would be lost if there is a sandbox mode.

It's like you didn't even read the thread before posting.

 

[Vexus]

@Kimsemus and @Recatek have valid points and it really comes down to what kind of game this wants to be. If the game wants to be a creative-mode ship designer like SE and so many other games, it can do that. That's kind of the default at this point. Pretty much all comparable games offer these kinds of individual servers with creative mode and they don't focus on the MMO component. Rarely does a game come along that can give a single shared world. Starbase seems to have the technical capacity and the desire to become an MMO, and has labeled their game as such. They didn't just think "multiplayer servers" - they thought bigger than that. So instead of thinking what features you'd want personally, what is best to achieve success for that implied goal?

Even larger MMOs like WoW and ESO and GW2 and so on have big servers, which are clumps of smaller servers that handle a fairly large volume of players each. How they achieve coalescence into a single shared game world experience is by having all players experience the same content across all those servers aka "Theme Park MMOs". People on two different servers can beat the same raid boss and discuss with each other how great the fight was.

Starbase and the like are different for sure. There's an element of ship design and building. But this is not the main game, it's a subset of potential options due to the tools provided. The entire game can be played without a single ship. It can be all station building and floating around to acquire resources, and combat could be FPS shooter-PvP taking objectives on a station. The game is not "build your dream ship and fly around" - although this is possible, that isn't the entirety of the game. Starbase comes across more like Minecraft-in-Space. Do what you want. Build whatever you want. The history of the game and what it is will be defined more by the player actions with the tools they are provided than by any set intended feature. For all we know, ship building could be completely automated at some point, and no one spends time building new ship designs because there's more interesting and important gameplay going on.

Like it or not, by being an MMO, you are window dressing decorations by others, by design. That's part of the MMO experience, like seeing some fully geared guy in any MMO. That's something you as a player cannot control. You are an integral part of the product. The real difference is that such a thing can matter. You will build a nice looking ship not only for yourself but for the reaction you get from others.

You could make the argument that leveling up in any traditional MMO should be done offline. After all, it allows you to level up on your own time, without interacting with other players. And 5-man dungeons? They should be made to be 1-man dungeons when you're offline. But this misses the whole point of the MMO experience, which is that you are around other players. That's the entire success of MMOs. No one is playing WoW to solo the 40-man raid. They want to do it because there's 39 other people there, with them, accomplishing something that matters.

 

[Bigsby]

It's like you didn't even read the thread before posting.

I did actually, and the argument against removing sandbox mode seemed to boil down to people thinking the only upside would be that they'd be immersion-building window dressing for a minority of players.