PVE is already failing...
- Thread starter Mutleyx
- Start date
- Joined
- May 25, 2021
- Messages
- 24
This game is actually set up such that you don't technically need credits at all. Only thing I've used them for is the armor set for my Endo, some towing fees, and propellant I could technically craft instead. I realize that I'm in the minority not taking the path of least resistance, but I really do prefer the DIY method. I was really able to research the things I needed before I needed them. Doesn't take that long to unlock fuel rods, propellant tanks, and tools.
From one point of view, there isn't any "PvE" in this game at all. There's some gathering, but that does not a satisfying PvE experience make. Imagine the reaction if a WoW PvE server just let you mine (not gather herbs, fish, archaeologise etc, just mine)... it wouldn't even be a game, would it?
No, Starbase is not a PvE game. It's a PvP game where you can, if you want, avoid Pew v Pew.
No, Starbase is not a PvE game. It's a PvP game where you can, if you want, avoid Pew v Pew.
SZ mining is already the most efficient credit/hour task you can perform in this game. Not only that, but you do it in *complete* safety. That being something no on can argue, you're going to complain that the asteroids are small? The risk vs reward equation is completely upside down in this game. Even if capital ships require a hefty upfront cost, when they aren't blowing up because they are completely safe, we will return to SZ mining again being the most profitable alongside being the safest way to make money. Safe zone mining SHOULD be boring mining of scraps around origins. There should be varying levels of risk to venture out to see commensurate reward. Currently there is zero incentive to kill each other over other regions of space other than to watch each other blow up and we can't even do that because most of the time people do not venture out.
It seems this game is completely designed around keeping people safe and you say the desire to "support PvE gameplay" is failing. Incredible. I'm not sure what PvP you're talking about that is being supported in lieu of PvE like you claim -- 99% of the playerbase is sitting in the safe zone mining. It's not to "build up", it's because there is no incentive to do anything else.
It seems this game is completely designed around keeping people safe and you say the desire to "support PvE gameplay" is failing. Incredible. I'm not sure what PvP you're talking about that is being supported in lieu of PvE like you claim -- 99% of the playerbase is sitting in the safe zone mining. It's not to "build up", it's because there is no incentive to do anything else.
- Joined
- May 25, 2021
- Messages
- 24
No, there's nothing else to do. The game is completely bereft of content. Mining and ship building is it. There are no NPCs, no missions, and nothing to shoot at besides rocks. You can only build a better mining ship so many times. "Wealth" is worthless when there's nothing to spend it on. Star Citizen has more content at this point.
There feels like nothing to do because everyone understands SZ mining is the fastest way to make money right now and has zero risk. If that changes and rare ore actually becomes worth the logistical investment, mining time, and risk associated with it there will pretty quickly be a lot more to do. The NPCs and missions you talk about become player-driven and there will be more excitement and "people to shoot at" because there is activity that is actually outside the SZ. Add radiation tracking mechanics to that and you have a pretty cool gameplay loop. Cap ships and sieging fit right on top of that for larger scale pvp and territory control.
- Joined
- May 25, 2021
- Messages
- 24
You misunderstand. I'm not much for PvP. Always just ends up being me getting jumped by gangs of PvPers with nothing better to do than to kill folk just trying to mind their own business. It's not fun for both sides, it's only fun for the gang of assholes. I don't mind it too much when there's reasonable odds, but there never are. The PvPers dont want that. They just want to shoot fish in a barrel.
Sandboxes are typically about player-driven content first and foremost. Sorry it's not 100% on your terms. If you don't want to pvp, you can hire people I'm sure to go with you. You say wealth is meaningless. How would NPCs and their plastic contrived "missions" fix that?
Also, you say pvp is only fun for the gangs of "assholes". I know plenty of guys that are all about mining and hauling and have yet to encounter any kind of pirate. They *want* pirates for both the excitement of escaping them and for cutting down on the other people they are competing with in the market. Sounds fun enough for them. I'm a pvper, and escorting or pirating both sound pretty fun to me provided there is reason for people to be outside the safe zone. I don't want to "shoot fish in a barrel", but I do want contextual pvp that offers some upside economically. I don't care if I win or lose or I'm outnumbered or I outnumber the enemy. You'll very rarely get a fight you feel is at "reasonable odds", especially if you lose. But hey, go ahead and keep trying to psychoanalyze people across the internet and understanding their motivations.
Content is about providing challenges and then allowing players to solve them. Those "gangs of assholes" provide an element of danger that itself invites creative solutions to avoid or outsmart.
Also, you say pvp is only fun for the gangs of "assholes". I know plenty of guys that are all about mining and hauling and have yet to encounter any kind of pirate. They *want* pirates for both the excitement of escaping them and for cutting down on the other people they are competing with in the market. Sounds fun enough for them. I'm a pvper, and escorting or pirating both sound pretty fun to me provided there is reason for people to be outside the safe zone. I don't want to "shoot fish in a barrel", but I do want contextual pvp that offers some upside economically. I don't care if I win or lose or I'm outnumbered or I outnumber the enemy. You'll very rarely get a fight you feel is at "reasonable odds", especially if you lose. But hey, go ahead and keep trying to psychoanalyze people across the internet and understanding their motivations.
Content is about providing challenges and then allowing players to solve them. Those "gangs of assholes" provide an element of danger that itself invites creative solutions to avoid or outsmart.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2021
- Messages
- 102
Probably right @C8H10N4O2 .. But at the same time I somehow suspect many in this "discussion" have no "early EVE " experience, if at all, if you catch my drift. 
- Joined
- May 25, 2021
- Messages
- 24
Probably right @C8H10N4O2 .. But at the same time I somehow suspect many in this "discussion" have no "early EVE " experience, if at all, if you catch my drift.
Generalisation, much? The PvPers I know simply yearn for someone to shoot back. The get all jealous when they find a massive debris field that was obviously a battle, that they missed the fight. And anybody outside the safe zone ought to be able to shoot back, even if it's just with an assault rifle.
Well Said!
I can really never understand folks that desire NPCs so badly, they rarely add anything to games. I watch SC, ED, NMS, EGS vids/streams and the AI are worthless. Most times they are brainless or OP and can never compare with dealing with other humans! Other than that it's fetch this/gather that dry missions. SB is a Sandbox MMO but it seems there's some that want to make it a traditional MMO despite there already being those games. Or for those dying for NPCs, why not play the space games that have plenty of that?
As far as PvP folks tend to want this symmetrical combat and that's also not what open world/sandbox games are about. It's amazing how many times folks complain about it and there's plenty of symmetrical combat games that exist too but they rather change the ones that are asymmetrical. Then as you stated; I also know plenty of folks who mine in the deep with zero issues from pirates. I'll never understand people.
It's from a different game, but you reminded me of it:
"The Chad is the guy that goes in for the kill. He goes big, or he dies tryin'. Just the thought... the thought of a firefight happening that he's not involved in, just, just pisses him off. He's gotta be a part of it."
But yes, I 100% agree. So many from the "pve crowd" in this community have this idea that what we want is to just gank defenseless ships for our own egos or something. They couldn't be more wrong. I just want a world that feels alive, I want danger for myself (and reward for it if I win), and I want people to *want* to choose to come fight because there is some kind of value concentrated outside the damn safezone.
Well said again! I'm a PvP Person and it's not some getting my rocks off on some helpless solo miner. I want a sense of danger in a verse I'm playing in. I want that randomness where anything can happen at anytime and anywhere, that's what makes things awesome. That's why I personally do not play PvE games because they're predictable, stale, and not really a challenge.
While I may be involved in taking out a solo miner or someone with the odds not in their favor, that doesn't mean I lust for that. I get far more out of an equal fight or even better...when I'm the one at a disadvantage because it challenges me! Sure there's a few (far less than folks stereotype about the PvP crowd) that camp, strictly go after underdogs, etc. but that hardly represents the whole. Hate when PvE types want to paint a broad brush to justify their hatred of PvPers just like I hate when it's done the other way.
While I may be involved in taking out a solo miner or someone with the odds not in their favor, that doesn't mean I lust for that. I get far more out of an equal fight or even better...when I'm the one at a disadvantage because it challenges me! Sure there's a few (far less than folks stereotype about the PvP crowd) that camp, strictly go after underdogs, etc. but that hardly represents the whole. Hate when PvE types want to paint a broad brush to justify their hatred of PvPers just like I hate when it's done the other way.
Large safe zones that players can clutter up with their sand castles build stuff in has worked wonders in DU. AFIK, this game was never about building and exploring. Conflict seems to be the core of this game. What is needed is conflict drivers and one of those drivers is resources and the need to protect or control them. Too often 'PvP' is simply about player killing with no purpose beyond being a relatively harmless outlet for psychopaths. Player killing should involve some kind of trade off like gaining notoriety and being banish from safe zones.
I'll agree to most of that. One of the primary issues right now is that the need to protect or control resources is non existent:
Maybe Eos just isn't the area that has a sandbox style risk-vs-reward configuration we all had in mind. Maybe they have other moons in mind for that style. In my humble opinion, I think that'd be a mistake. The SZ around Eos Origin is an incredibly large area, and the SZ mechanics of stations and CCAPS are already generous.
Another possibility is that FB just didn't have time to focus on this kind of thing in CA. It's easy to backseat develop, I grant that, and I'm sure there is a decent part of the community that is happy to just sit in SSC and mine the same kind of rocks around SZ with cute mining designs. However, I look at the roadmap and any discussion I can find on this topic and I see nothing that will change the root issues here.
All that to say, you're right in that there is no driver for conflict. Station sieges and MCAPS are coming, but the only motivation people will have to fight is to watch explosions. There isn't an underlying economic motivation for control of an area because, hey, SZ mining is still the most profitable OR rare ore mining has become king and it's literally uniformly distributed across a massive area so just go back to your cubbyhole and mine it in peace and stealth. In this hypothetical scenario where rare ore is valuable commensurate with it's range from Origin, haulers will still be relatively safe since radiation detection is still way behind the large scale stuff like cap ships and stations in the queue which, like I've said, may not change the equation at all.
- Safe zone mining is more profitable $/hour than any other kind of mining
- Safe zone mining can be done in complete safety
- The "rare ores" (Kutonium, Ymirium, etc.) are pretty much equally spread out across a massive area within their respective zones in the belt
- Rare ores are not required for many parts, and when they are, it's in extremely small quantities
Maybe Eos just isn't the area that has a sandbox style risk-vs-reward configuration we all had in mind. Maybe they have other moons in mind for that style. In my humble opinion, I think that'd be a mistake. The SZ around Eos Origin is an incredibly large area, and the SZ mechanics of stations and CCAPS are already generous.
Another possibility is that FB just didn't have time to focus on this kind of thing in CA. It's easy to backseat develop, I grant that, and I'm sure there is a decent part of the community that is happy to just sit in SSC and mine the same kind of rocks around SZ with cute mining designs. However, I look at the roadmap and any discussion I can find on this topic and I see nothing that will change the root issues here.
All that to say, you're right in that there is no driver for conflict. Station sieges and MCAPS are coming, but the only motivation people will have to fight is to watch explosions. There isn't an underlying economic motivation for control of an area because, hey, SZ mining is still the most profitable OR rare ore mining has become king and it's literally uniformly distributed across a massive area so just go back to your cubbyhole and mine it in peace and stealth. In this hypothetical scenario where rare ore is valuable commensurate with it's range from Origin, haulers will still be relatively safe since radiation detection is still way behind the large scale stuff like cap ships and stations in the queue which, like I've said, may not change the equation at all.
Exactly, resources are relatively well distributed making confrontation pointless. I'm always surprised that devs of 'open world' games don't pay more attention to the real world as a model. Crack open an Atlas, the first thing you'll see in different colored patches. Study history, you'll read about trade routes and the epic exploration to discover new routes or epic battles to control the existing routes or the building of whole cities and empires to take advantage of those routes and resources. What we have here is a hippie colony of robots mining and ship building to mine more with the only conflict driver on the horizon being Group A: "Hey look at the giant space station we made for giggles". Group B: "Hey, look at that massive station they built! Let's blow it up!". Why? "For the giggles!".