Space combat is primitive?

Neva

Active endo
Joined
May 11, 2021
Messages
27
#41
like in other games I am sure that over time the combat will become more complex...
In other space combat games with this aim+shoot paradigm they've ended up with giant meta deathbricks.
That's why I am NOT sure and hoping that devs will take a different approach.
 

Venombrew

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
261
#42
dude this game is not even a 1/3rd of the way done going into beta. your acting like its all done now and the devs have no intention on working on the ship combat system. when their own road map clearly states(the one i shared on previous post) that they are doing a full ship overhaul in q3 and q4 including weaponry and yolo language. and all this advance ship combat will be ran off the ingame yolo language, so we need that updated and improved first before they can even go further with more complicated ship mechanics. this is something you would know if you actually spent a good amount of time researching this game. so let me explain this to you, no yolo no go go. improved yolo, means better and improved ship mechanics.

so you basically acting like FB has no intentions of moving forward with combat system, but what your lacking to understand, there are way more pressing matters of importance in these extreme early stages of the game. even after the 17th of june, this game will remain in EA for a year and half at least. we need a stable server that can handle thousands of players, which it can not yet as of right now. so if you can't stay on line what the point of any aspect of the game? if we can't get the proper jobs done and materials flushed out, how can we have a market or even yet build a ship? if they ship builders aren't flushed out, how do you even plan on building a ship? what about the companies, factions? people are going to want to socialize, how many games like this last when players can't even join parties, companies, or even factions? lets not forget the space stations, dev and player, if they can't get this right and ready, gonna be pretty boring cruising around an empty universe with your highly advance combat ship. didn't think about that did you? a lot of fun just cruising in empty space with the ocassional asteroid belt.

ive said it, others on here have said it, but you dont understand. its not that they are not adding these things or moving that way, they just haven't had a real chance to get started on it since there are way more important things to get done in these extremely early stages of this games development. i mean they put it in the road map for q3 and q4 that i uploaded on a previous post, were in q2, what more do you want? and if ship combat is literally the only thing in the game that concerns you, come back towards the beginning of this winter, because over the summer they got more important shit on making this game stable then worrying about advance ship mechanics, half the time we can't even get these things to safely land, what good is advance ship mechanics now if we can't even land safely? so i said it again, that stuff is coming but we need a stable game first before going forward.
 
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XenoCow

Master endo
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
435
#43
Please turn down the salt. Neva is taking the criticisms of his or her idea like a champ, better than is to be expected from most under the same circumstances. His or her opinions may be incorrect but I do agree that there haven't been enough concrete examples of the counter arguments, which could also be due to the game being still very alpha. More than one party may be right. :)
 

kiiyo

Well-known endo
Joined
Jul 11, 2020
Messages
78
#44
I don't understand why everyone's pushing back with the "bro its just alpha". Like.. yes, its alpha, and discussing ways to improve it in the future will:
a) not hurt anyone's feelings or game (I hope, at least...)
and
b) may be beneficial to the devs later down the line.

Point is.
Combat's boring.
You do nothing but aim and shoot during combat.
That's boring.
Let's talk about ways to fix that.

WITHOUT TIMEFRAMES OF IMPLEMENTATION.

I think that an RPS sort of system can be implemented which allows you to push components further in exchange for diminishing capability of other components. Dumping energy into thrusters can help in a dense field fight, but in an open arena you put all that bonus point into your guns. Maybe some sort of "ThreeWayLink" device. You register 3 devices onto it, and it has fields that allow you to distribute 120 arbitrary points across those 3 directions. Of course, overclocked thrusters eat more fuel, overclocked guns eat through ammo, and overclocked uhhh.. lamps... blind you that much faster?
 

Walord

Active endo
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
33
#45
dude this game is not even a 1/3rd of the way done going into beta. your acting like its all done now and the devs have no intention on working on the ship combat system.
so we should just wait until they do the overhaul so we can give our feedback? how are they gonna do the overhaul while taking into consideration what the community wants without our feedback. Its just a really flawed way of thinking, that mindset of "oh its just an alpha" is stupid, feedback is still feedback whatever you say about it and the best time to say it is before they do the ship overhaul it dont you think?

also as side note, its going into early access, not beta
 

Joelfett

Learned-to-turn-off-magboots endo
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Messages
47
#47
I just want to be able to hijack ships during combat and use remote explosives and other dismantling tools instead of another ship, because that is fun and i havent found a game i can do that in
 

Venombrew

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
261
#48
well first thing,
also as side note, its going into early access, not beta
"Early access, also known as early funding, alpha access, alpha founding, or paid alpha, is a funding model in the video game industry by which consumers can purchase and play a game in the various pre-release development cycles, such as pre-alpha, alpha, and/or beta, while the developer is able to use those funds to continue further development on the game."

then a quick breakdown of the poster's original post.
There's several core problems with it here:
1) It's just boring. There's not much to master. Aim+Lead+Shoot. That's all. Seriously, it's more primitive then the most primitive shooter.
2) There's seem to be no point in trying to invent/use different ship classes. Meta is always going to be the same optimal proportion of agility/armor/firepower.
3) There's not much to experiment with. There's no place for different roles/classes of ships. There's no point in experimenting with ship designs other then trying to maximise armor/cannons/agility characteristics of a ship. Or finding new meta balance of those characteristics after some patch.
Current meta might change if for example devs make multicrew possible. But they'll just move meta from fighters to gunships. This won't really change the basic problem of primitive gameplay.
these are opinions not facts, and very misleading to anyone who knows very little about the game if they were to see this.
1. Show me any other game where there is a real third mechanic when it comes to firing a weapon from a player or a ship. cause i don't care what game your playing, there is aim and fire, and lock on(which is a variation of lock on target and even heatseekers and tagged targets.) we are only missing the second part as of right now.
2. This is not only extremely wrong but contradicts what the game is, it is a scifi crafting game with its own build in player used coding language mimicking c++. if anything this game is all about crafting and to say there is no point for to invent and explore the option is quite ridiculous. Metas will always exist most importantly in any pvp base game, the beauty of starbase is, meta's here won't last long with the constant evolution of the game. Example would be, turrets have a certain delay in the script code, can't remember exactly but lets say 1 sec. The player who figures out the code to make the delay shorter will have an advantage. Quicker turning turrets than the other players you will encounter will be a benefit in your favor.
3. Says not to experiment with, I again say this is an non-fact opinion. And their 3rd example contradicts the first part of their own statement. Who wouldn't use better tech regardless who discovers it if its available to them?

And finally even their P.S., ends with non fact information, "P.S. I'm not here to wine, I'm really impressed with what Starbase is trying to achieve and I'll buy it anyway. But the futher developement goes - the harder it is to alter some basic game design elements. "

What games do not evolve as they go on? Games that don't make it past EA for one. But when has it ever been hard to alter the BASIC designs in a game? Look at the evolution of every game that made it, not one is the same as it was when it came out, all the way down to a basic level. And more importantly EA players will tell you, the game changes drastically at this point from what it was before EA.
 

Orlover

Well-known endo
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
66
#49
I just want to be able to hijack ships during combat and use remote explosives and other dismantling tools instead of another ship, because that is fun and i havent found a game i can do that in
lol, you can actually do that now.

There is C4 in the game that you remote detonate. It comes in a pack of 10 I think (maybe 6). You slap it all over something and then detonate them with a click. Small localized explosion but it can take out beams. Spread them around and you can make an endo sized hole in something pretty easy. Slap them on a fuel rod or prop tank and you will get a good sized boom, more than enough to take out a ship.
Now I have actually landed on ships in combat. Usually somebody will get cocky when they are blowing up your ship if you stop moving (they park next to you and just keep firing until your ship turns to confetti) and you can float over just out of their sight while they are blowing the hell outa you. Land on their ship and they are hosed if they don't get out of their chair to come deal with you (and then you can have a fist fight if you want). I have taken out more than a handful of ships by landing on them and taking a cutting laser and pickaxe to the ships delicate internal bits, C4 would have been just as easy to take along. Heck you can use a bolt tool and just start unbolting everything. Unbolt an engine and just pick it up and toss it into the ether. But you could just waltz up and smack a fuel tank with your fist. Thats usually how people destroy their ships that get disabled in events so nobody can check out their designs.

One of my favorite fights was my first Robur Rumble and somebody had a crewed Purple Plum that was covered in manned turrets. Slow as a snail but tough to bring down. They blew up my ship when I was strafing it and I got blown out of my cockpit. Momentum carried me right up to the plum though as the gunners were blowing up ships around me. I coasted right up to the hull and found a hole blown into the side, went inside and started tearing it apart. Took out fuel lines, YOLO, computers, flight computer, everything. Just wrecked it. About a minute later the pilot poked his head in through the doorway and I was laughing too hard to fight him, that plum was toast. He shot me but that thing was a paperweight by the time I was done. The guys at Silverlight watching my stream were just drowning out the discord channel laughing about it. They hadn't laughed that hard since I took out one of the other fighters with a grenade launcher.
 

Joelfett

Learned-to-turn-off-magboots endo
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Messages
47
#50
lol, you can actually do that now.

There is C4 in the game that you remote detonate. It comes in a pack of 10 I think (maybe 6). You slap it all over something and then detonate them with a click. Small localized explosion but it can take out beams. Spread them around and you can make an endo sized hole in something pretty easy. Slap them on a fuel rod or prop tank and you will get a good sized boom, more than enough to take out a ship.
Now I have actually landed on ships in combat. Usually somebody will get cocky when they are blowing up your ship if you stop moving (they park next to you and just keep firing until your ship turns to confetti) and you can float over just out of their sight while they are blowing the hell outa you. Land on their ship and they are hosed if they don't get out of their chair to come deal with you (and then you can have a fist fight if you want). I have taken out more than a handful of ships by landing on them and taking a cutting laser and pickaxe to the ships delicate internal bits, C4 would have been just as easy to take along. Heck you can use a bolt tool and just start unbolting everything. Unbolt an engine and just pick it up and toss it into the ether. But you could just waltz up and smack a fuel tank with your fist. Thats usually how people destroy their ships that get disabled in events so nobody can check out their designs.

One of my favorite fights was my first Robur Rumble and somebody had a crewed Purple Plum that was covered in manned turrets. Slow as a snail but tough to bring down. They blew up my ship when I was strafing it and I got blown out of my cockpit. Momentum carried me right up to the plum though as the gunners were blowing up ships around me. I coasted right up to the hull and found a hole blown into the side, went inside and started tearing it apart. Took out fuel lines, YOLO, computers, flight computer, everything. Just wrecked it. About a minute later the pilot poked his head in through the doorway and I was laughing too hard to fight him, that plum was toast. He shot me but that thing was a paperweight by the time I was done. The guys at Silverlight watching my stream were just drowning out the discord channel laughing about it. They hadn't laughed that hard since I took out one of the other fighters with a grenade launcher.
Oh man that is going to be awesome!
 

Venombrew

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
261
#51
@Joelfett i cant remember if it is fully in now or just on road map, but free form building is or will be available. crafting your own devices that the devs never even thought of. example would be traps, if you take a rangefinder, hook and wire it up to fuel tank with explosives, or even use the warhead off of a missle since you use access its information through your wrist comm, to make an explosive that would be triggered the moment someone or something past through the rangefinder beam. this is where learning in the in game yolo language really comes in handy. but you can do makeshift stuff, in EA my crew of players is looking into customizing armor from alloys, welding the pieces together then welding it on the endo's body. can it be done, dont know, but can't wait to try!
 

cranky corvid

Well-known endo
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
63
#52
Free-form devices can be made, but they have been having persistence issues. They had a habit of despawning on me and spawning back in only unpredictably when I last tried working with them (though that was quite a while ago), and in the first Outpost Assault event, the defenders built a bunch of barricades and such, but they didn't even render for the attackers. The roadmap has persistence for objects left on moons, cities, lots and player stations slated for Q3 as "Scrap Yard Support".
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
142
#53
Well, according to replies in this thread (and discord conversations) I see two two types of opinions:
1) Combat is indeed boring.
2) Combat is great, I just don't get it. Nobody is able to explain what is so great about it though, how it differs from Space Engineers, Empyrion etc.


What direction? You mean placement? Sloping? You do not change that in combat. I don't see any tactical choices for a pilot.

Taking shots. What is so deep and tactical about taking shots?

Well yes, you kinda have to understand what's wrong with your ship, but there's not much you can do about it. Again, no tactical choices.


This is where "Nobody is able to explain what is so great about it though" comes from. Maybe you could provide some examples?
Because the only example I have right now is a document from ship builders that participated in tournaments. They ended up with only one meta ship with two variants of armament. That's it.
For depth of combat, you can‘t necessarily dodge shots. What you can do is to point the side you want to take the hit towards the oncoming projectiles, and take it there. You can live a LOT longer with that. For variation, that’s arena combat, which won’t be seen much at all in EA. The ship was developed specifically for arena combat, and therefore was the best at it. Why I’m skirting around some stuff is because things may be classified, and I’m not completely sure. I ask you to trust me, you’re very much lowballing this and jumping to a lot of conclusions before you’ve played the game.
 

Venombrew

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
261
#54
For depth of combat, you can‘t necessarily dodge shots. What you can do is to point the side you want to take the hit towards the oncoming projectiles, and take it there. You can live a LOT longer with that. For variation, that’s arena combat, which won’t be seen much at all in EA. The ship was developed specifically for arena combat, and therefore was the best at it. Why I’m skirting around some stuff is because things may be classified, and I’m not completely sure. I ask you to trust me, you’re very much lowballing this and jumping to a lot of conclusions before you’ve played the game.
if you looking for some guinea pigs i got a crew of seven with no real loyalties tied to anyone yet.
EDIT: also are they now doing a mixture of new alloys for new effects or is that roadmap info for the future quarters still to come? i can't remember where i was reading it but i dont know if its even in the game yet. stronger alloys turned into the paneling would help with defensive hits.
 

Bob Ross

Active endo
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
34
#55
Hmm I can agree that a system of counters will be beneficial to the game, especially the idea of "no meta." There is a counter to any advantage that makes you vulnerable in other ways. Like Rock paper scissors with skill.
 

five

Master endo
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
293
#56
In other space combat games with this aim+shoot paradigm they've ended up with giant meta deathbricks.
That's why I am NOT sure and hoping that devs will take a different approach.
what games are you thinking about in particular? SE?
 

Neva

Active endo
Joined
May 11, 2021
Messages
27
#57
your acting like its all done now
so you basically acting like FB has no intentions of moving forward with combat system
Do I? I'd be glad to see that there's some kind of combat overhaul is planned. But I see no sign of it. Actually, quite the opposite - no cameras, no sensors that would allow auto targeting, no proper missiles, etc. etc.
Yeha, I get your point that they have a lot of other stuff to do. But how does it make you belive that they'll do something with combat after that? They might not.
 

Neva

Active endo
Joined
May 11, 2021
Messages
27
#58
1. Show me any other game where there is a real third mechanic when it comes to firing a weapon from a player or a ship.
Already did. Posted a DCS combat breakdown here (take a look in one of my previous posts). While lock+shoot mechanic is present there - it's the last thing pilots worry about. They are more worried about speed, distance, positioning, maneuvering, radar angles, etc.

meta's here won't last long with the constant evolution of the game
Only if game patches change balance of things. But in this case it's not about game depth.
The player who figures out the code to make the delay shorter will have an advantage. Quicker turning turrets than the other players you will encounter will be a benefit in your favor.
People will just find optimal code algorithms, armor placement techniques, etc. in several months. That's it. And you end up with one meta ship type.
Can you some how bring something that proves your position? Because I see Space Engineers, Empyrion and other space games that ended up with meta deathbricks. You can apply your second argument to those games, because SE has coding, they evolved, those are crafting games, etc, but turned out that that's not enought.
So it's more like your argument of "It's going to be fine later" doesn't seem to be supported by anything, and disproved by those games examples.
 
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Neva

Active endo
Joined
May 11, 2021
Messages
27
#59
what games are you thinking about in particular? SE?
Yeah, SE and Empyrion. And others. Robocraft actually had similar problem untill they've added different weapons (really different, not like it is now in SB).
 

Jasperagus

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Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Messages
62
#60
Yeah, SE and Empyrion. And others. Robocraft actually had similar problem untill they've added different weapons (really different, not like it is now in SB).
When it comes to different weapons the devs already plan on adding some new ones. We can probably hope that after this year once they get other stuff completed they will look into adding more. Hopefully.

I get how people saying "it's going to be fine later" could be annoying but the exact same goes for saying the game is going to stay exactly as is without change. Although it makes sense to be worried about the future of a game. The devs are currently working on mechaniques to give the game more than just minning and ship building. Also to prevent giant death cubes cameras won't be possible. There are people who have already had wonderful experiences with the current combat. So when/if the devs add more to the combat we expect something special.
 
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