Starbase Progress Notes: Week 33 - Capital Ship insight (2021)
- Thread starter ElluFB
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well no one can really know if they are being sieged or not. theres no warning. so no one can really put their civ cap out before a siege when they think they are going to be sieged in a second. but a civ cap with no station is a immovable crappy disaster with no function. though yes i know i saw the video before of "but theres a warning message" yeh thats DURING SIEGE
Have you even watched the info on station siege mechanics? There is literally a warning and a timer until your safe zone comes down and your station becomes vulnerable.
Literally right here:
Where are you getting your information? One of us has a bad source and it's hampering constructive discussion.
Literally right here:
Where are you getting your information? One of us has a bad source and it's hampering constructive discussion.
The capital ship video makes no mention of exactly how big the safe area is, just that there is one
I also think you're wrong on the warning timer, the video implies that the timer will appear to warn you of the seige before it occurs, giving you time to update your defenses. The warzone state only occurs when the MCAP arrives at the station, at which point any CCAPs just sit there, unable to be used.
I also think you're wrong on the warning timer, the video implies that the timer will appear to warn you of the seige before it occurs, giving you time to update your defenses. The warzone state only occurs when the MCAP arrives at the station, at which point any CCAPs just sit there, unable to be used.
Same, but I know it's important to FB to allow people who want 100% safety a mechanism with which to explore. I'm worried that "exploration" is a loaded word at this point. I know they won't scrap the idea, but I hope civilian capital ships are just that -- civilian, and cannot directly or indirectly support either military or deep belt "pvp" zone mining operations. Would be great if they bought their invulnerability at the price tag of not being able to carry any form of weaponry in any way (crew small arms and any guns on docked conventional ships included) and they were restricted to carrying items of some low rarity and under.
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- Apr 5, 2021
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Why?
Most of the "against" is based on assumed function, purpose, or impact. And yes, the same can be said about many of the "for" arguments. So maybe it would be good to just let this first iteration happen, see where it is and where it goes as I am pretty sure that is exactly what FB intends to do.
That said, I think there are a few potential balance solutions which would resolve some of the more prominent concerns the "against" are using/claiming.
A major one, which I think would be a general one, is power systems. Caps (and stations) should not have some magical everlasting power supply driving their defences/shielding or ever their safe zone. Introducing a requirement to maintain power on the Cap or station to keep it operational and it's secure/safe zone in place. You neglect to maintain this and the Cap/Station goes into a low power mode which will cause the safe zone/shield to shrink and deteriorate.
Once below a certain level a station can be occupied, a Cap boarded, and you can restore power which will then shift control/ownership to you. While the protection restores though, either is vulnerable and can be recaptured or attacked by a third party.
Same if the owner only restores power once down.. Cap/Station is vulnerable while shield/zone restores.
CCap can't enter Warzones, I do not see why CCap would not be able to support/accommodate mining ops outside safe zones as that in itself would offer targets for engagement in the ships doing the mining.
AFAIK CCap can't have armament mounted, I could see no small arms on a CCap as a possible balance but obviously they should activate as soon as you launch your ship from the CCap and that launched ship can have weapons fitted as well.
Most of the "against" is based on assumed function, purpose, or impact. And yes, the same can be said about many of the "for" arguments. So maybe it would be good to just let this first iteration happen, see where it is and where it goes as I am pretty sure that is exactly what FB intends to do.
That said, I think there are a few potential balance solutions which would resolve some of the more prominent concerns the "against" are using/claiming.
A major one, which I think would be a general one, is power systems. Caps (and stations) should not have some magical everlasting power supply driving their defences/shielding or ever their safe zone. Introducing a requirement to maintain power on the Cap or station to keep it operational and it's secure/safe zone in place. You neglect to maintain this and the Cap/Station goes into a low power mode which will cause the safe zone/shield to shrink and deteriorate.
Once below a certain level a station can be occupied, a Cap boarded, and you can restore power which will then shift control/ownership to you. While the protection restores though, either is vulnerable and can be recaptured or attacked by a third party.
Same if the owner only restores power once down.. Cap/Station is vulnerable while shield/zone restores.
CCap can't enter Warzones, I do not see why CCap would not be able to support/accommodate mining ops outside safe zones as that in itself would offer targets for engagement in the ships doing the mining.
AFAIK CCap can't have armament mounted, I could see no small arms on a CCap as a possible balance but obviously they should activate as soon as you launch your ship from the CCap and that launched ship can have weapons fitted as well.
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Monger, it does not take a rocket scientist to understand how this is going to affect economy. If you and your army are about to go to war, and I’m selling you two different types of guns, one gun uses bullets, the other is magic and never runs out of ammo. The magic one is about the same price. Which are you going to buy? What is that going to do to my ammo sales? I swear..
I’m saying that the civilian capitaBl ships are a means of providing supply that cannot be stopped, there is no variation, variation is what keeps an economy interesting and alive. (variation being whether or not that transport ship makes it to its supply drop off point, or even if the mining trip went smooth, like no pvp) because of civilian capital ships, there will not be a market for Capital Ships. There won’t be many lost because everybody is driving admin style.this is also a means of transportation that will add a lot of supply to the market that will overkill the demand.. you can warp your civilian ship carrying daltium, lukium, Xhalium, arkanuim, omnium, and all the other ores that are insanely expensive, and full the market stupid with them, thus, driving prices down on those very same ores. Hell, take some detours. No one is going to stop you. It’s having God mode in a game man. That’s like admin abuse. … now you say that we haven’t seen te finished product. That’s true. But, from what I do know that exists in game, with Civ capitals entering the belt, I am confident enough to bet you a large amount of real life money. Not saying I will, because that might be against the rules. But dude, I KNOW this is what will happen. And I’d put money on it.
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Now, If they were to make it impossible for this civilian capital ship to enter the belt, while keeping the current mechanics of “blockading” and that whole thing about “hull integrity” then I’d feel better about it. If they do want the ccap to enter the belt, they need to allow it to be sieged while in the belt. That would make more sense to me. Then upgrade to mili if you want to siege as well… what this does is creates a mechanic that really protects those extra cautious people. But, also balances the game. IMO. The cap ship should only be for travel without worry of being ganked outside the belt. Because I thought all these mechanics were to just protect noobs from being “picked on” not a baby sitting throughout the game. But if you want the right to hit those rare ores, you need to be in danger just like the rest of us.
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but here is the problem with that, and I’ve already asked Lauri about it. All it takes to make a base is that foundation square thing. That’s it. Automatic warp point by laying down that box. So yea, easily exploited. Otherwise, I see what you are saying, but it won’t work that way. You have to count on the player base always cheesing the game as long as they are allowed to. We call those, metas. I didn’t mean that patronizing at all, by the way my friend. It sounded shitty lol. But yea, they can pick up the boxes whenever. Lauri confirmed it. Just not mid siege ofc
but here is the problem with that, and I’ve already asked Lauri about it. All it takes to make a base is that foundation square thing. That’s it. Automatic warp point by laying down that box. So yea, easily exploited. Otherwise, I see what you are saying, but it won’t work that way. You have to count on the player base always cheesing the game as long as they are allowed to. We call those, metas. I didn’t mean that patronizing at all, by the way my friend. It sounded shitty lol. But yea, they can pick up the boxes whenever. Lauri confirmed it. Just not mid siege ofc
You cant built the ship dock mentioned in the discussion with just the station block, i think there was some miscommunication there.
The capital ship dock is a structure like the factories
Lauri stated: "We are still debating whether or not civilian capital ships can return to capital ships docks large enough to fit the ship. As docks and the station itself are quite an investment, especially a large one, the station capable of hosting civilian capital ships would itself be a valuable target for attacks. "
You wont be moving those cap docks like you can move the station blocks, thats for sure.
The capital ship dock is a structure like the factories
Lauri stated: "We are still debating whether or not civilian capital ships can return to capital ships docks large enough to fit the ship. As docks and the station itself are quite an investment, especially a large one, the station capable of hosting civilian capital ships would itself be a valuable target for attacks. "
You wont be moving those cap docks like you can move the station blocks, thats for sure.
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Here you are incorrectly assuming that all meaningful pvp will be done in a "warzone". Plenty of it will happen organically around POIs, more "minor" stations without a siege currently occurring, or large skirmishes between rivals in random spots.
No, the CCAP will minimize the risk of its associated ships it has launched compared to the route these ships may normally have to take from a station further away. These ships have to fly out of the CCAP to ore that could be as close as ~500m away, but even up to ~25km away they are still relatively safe. This removes a large amount of travel time and risk from the launched ships. Also note that these ships launched from a CCAP can be bottom-of-the-barrel cheap since they do not need good range/speed since they are launched from the CCAP and they do not need armor or weapons because they can scurry back inside if they see enemies and if not, they are 1/1000000 the cost of the CCAP anyway so I'm sure the company wont mind losing a 40k ship if they can afford a 100 mil ship. Let's cut the BS, there is no real risk here.
If they can't have armament mounted, great. However, allowing small arms and its client ships to have mounted weapons will effectively allow the CCAP, a civilian capital ship meant for exploration, to apply military pressure. It is already invulnerable. You do not need weapons if it is truly meant for the purpose of exploration. There is a scenario in which I park my CCAP near your station and use it to base military aggression out of for days and you can do nothing about it except try to kill the ships that come out? If I show up with a sizeable defense force and the aggressors just run back inside and wait for the defense to leave and then attack again? That seems pretty abusable to me and not my idea of an exciting experience. If you use your civilian capital ship's smaller ships to attack me, I should be able to attack you at the root of the problem to defend myself. Do you see the issue there?
No, the CCAP will minimize the risk of its associated ships it has launched compared to the route these ships may normally have to take from a station further away. These ships have to fly out of the CCAP to ore that could be as close as ~500m away, but even up to ~25km away they are still relatively safe. This removes a large amount of travel time and risk from the launched ships. Also note that these ships launched from a CCAP can be bottom-of-the-barrel cheap since they do not need good range/speed since they are launched from the CCAP and they do not need armor or weapons because they can scurry back inside if they see enemies and if not, they are 1/1000000 the cost of the CCAP anyway so I'm sure the company wont mind losing a 40k ship if they can afford a 100 mil ship. Let's cut the BS, there is no real risk here.
If they can't have armament mounted, great. However, allowing small arms and its client ships to have mounted weapons will effectively allow the CCAP, a civilian capital ship meant for exploration, to apply military pressure. It is already invulnerable. You do not need weapons if it is truly meant for the purpose of exploration. There is a scenario in which I park my CCAP near your station and use it to base military aggression out of for days and you can do nothing about it except try to kill the ships that come out? If I show up with a sizeable defense force and the aggressors just run back inside and wait for the defense to leave and then attack again? That seems pretty abusable to me and not my idea of an exciting experience. If you use your civilian capital ship's smaller ships to attack me, I should be able to attack you at the root of the problem to defend myself. Do you see the issue there?
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Given a rich enough company, it's feasible they could create a network of modestly sized stations with docks that allows the abuse of this mechanic. You cannot make capital ship docks expensive enough for these companies to prevent this without making docks prohibitively expensive for the other 90% of the population. There is no compelling reason to allow the civilian ship into the belt and open the door to this in the first place that I can see. The inability to enter the belt was the only real drawback compared to an MCAP.
A station is open to assault, if someone has a valuable network of mining stations, they are a juicy target.
Miners still need to leave the safety of the station to mine, at worst CCAPs might make moving bulk materials around safer, and we dont have ANY details on how CCAP storage will work. Will it be similar to current ships that need large storage blocks? I don't imagine it will be infinite, so moving materials may be safer but will still require a lot of time to jump around. Small haulers might be able to move things around faster, a few hours compare to potential days for a fully loaded CCAP
Yes, a rich enough company is going to have significant advantages in infrastructure, but that doesnt mean something is going to be able to be widely abused.
Miners still need to leave the safety of the station to mine, at worst CCAPs might make moving bulk materials around safer, and we dont have ANY details on how CCAP storage will work. Will it be similar to current ships that need large storage blocks? I don't imagine it will be infinite, so moving materials may be safer but will still require a lot of time to jump around. Small haulers might be able to move things around faster, a few hours compare to potential days for a fully loaded CCAP
Yes, a rich enough company is going to have significant advantages in infrastructure, but that doesnt mean something is going to be able to be widely abused.