PASSIVE SENSOR TYPES | How to find stuff & a reason to multi-crew

[kiiyo]

i didn't care how much i make - it's how i do it that matters. i care about gameplay. is being vulnerable always your gameplay? then immediately ask the developer to blacklist in which you will enter all the players, like they do in elit denjeros (its good for casuals, and the game dies)

I care about how much I make. Mining is so utterly boring that it has become a game of efficiency for me - making a ship that is a light as possible with as many crates as possible, being able to make the most efficient trips in order to maximize profit.

Risk is part of that. I WANT to be forced to armor up my miner. I WANT to be forced to make miners that are able to evade attacks or hide in the fog due to pirates being able to find me quickly. I WANT to be forced to pay attention to my sensors when flying, not just... sit there and let the asteroid avoidance do its thing.

Call me "not a man" however much you want. Find me in the fog without sensors and kill me once every 50 runs. You won't even make a dent in my profits, and that's what matters to me

 

[pavvvel]

is this a place to discuss your personality or is this a forum game suggestions?

 

[Foraven]

Two sides of the coin:
1) Casual. Passive 360 sensors. 100 stations. 100 safezones. Yolol makes a beep - the player flies away to the station. Gameplay is over.

From the very beginning you have been arguing against something you don't even understand. Nobody has been wanting for a 360 sensor thing that warn you if another ship is out there that can be automated with yolol. The suggestion was to implement real world like detection system with the real world limitations they have (ie don't magically tells you what you are listening to).

2) Adequate. Players learn how to make good ships. Keeping an eye on the situation. Learn to defend themselves. And using active sensors as a separate type of gameplay!

Min-Maxers disagree. A jack of all trades is never as good as a dedicated shop for any purpose. A miner with guns is never as good at mining as one with only crates and mining lasers, just like mining lasers on a hauler is dead weight. A fighter with crates is no fighter.

Which is better: another silent yolol feature for casuals or a whole huge layer of gameplay in the form of active sensors...?

It all comes down how it is implemented. Actives means you emit to receive back sensor data, passive means you listen to what others emits. Both have their pros an cons in real life and could add a lot of cool tactics to the game.

Players are crying about miners needing to be given a chance. But why give them that chance if they won't even make a good ship..................?

Go ahead, make a good mining ship that is also good at fighting. If it was possible we would have many in the ship shops already.

From the beginning you have been arguing the wrong thing. There are many ways

Start by understanding what passive sensor actually means before telling everyone it's a bad idea.

 

[pavvvel]

Start by understanding what passive sensor actually means before telling everyone it's a bad idea.

start by reading this entire thread in its entirety.
If you have already read it, do it again.

Go ahead, make a good mining ship that is also good at fighting. If it was possible we would have many in the ship shops already.

It would be foolish to believe that anyone would give the blueprints of such ships to the public.

Min-Maxers disagree. A jack of all trades is never as good as a dedicated shop for any purpose. A miner with guns is never as good at mining as one with only crates and mining lasers, just like mining lasers on a hauler is dead weight. A fighter with crates is no fighter.

And again - if you have difficulty understanding information, try reading the entire thread again several times. why do i have to write the same thing and you don't understand? (this is a rhetorical question)

 

[Foraven]

start by reading this entire thread in its entirety.
If you have already read it, do it again.

I did and from your very first post I think you argue about the wrong thing. Go play Nebulous: Fleet Command and then tell us that passive sensors are no good.

It would be foolish to believe that anyone would give the blueprints of such ships to the public.

There is no magical way to make such ship that would not involve a lot of compromises (bigger, slower, more expensive and not as durable as a true fighter). You don't need ship mounted guns to take out a mining ship, several of the hand held weapons would do, especially if the target did not notice you coming. Tripods works too and don't requires designing the ship from the ground up to have guns.

And again - if you have difficulty understanding information, try reading the entire thread again several times. why do i have to write the same thing and you don't understand? (this is a rhetorical question)

I do understand it, and I do think your are the one getting the wrong conclusions. But nothing anyone would say would convince you that "passive sensors" not equal "easy way to avoid all PVP" at this point. You just decided so instead of arguing how it could be implemented to avoid the pitfalls you anticipate.

 

[Recatek]

There is no magical way to make such ship that would not involve a lot of compromises (bigger, slower, more expensive and not as durable as a true fighter). You don't need ship mounted guns to take out a mining ship, several of the hand held weapons would do, especially if the target did not notice you coming. Tripods works too and don't requires designing the ship from the ground up to have guns.

Also worth noting that turrets and the like require other players -- players that could instead be in their own mining ships making your group more money. Any discussion of miner vs. pirate has to assume the same number of players (usually at most 1 or 2 per side), otherwise the economic factor makes balance irrelevant.

 

[Foraven]

Also worth noting that turrets and the like require other players -- players that could instead be in their own mining ships making your group more money. Any discussion of miner vs. pirate has to assume the same number of players (usually at most 1 or 2 per side), otherwise the economic factor makes balance irrelevant.

Yup, players that would be bored to tears most of the time and probably would be watching youtube instead of looking out for potential enemies.

 

[Cavilier210]

I got the thread wrong, my main message is in the "hardpoints" thread
https://forum.starbasegame.com/threads/hardpoints.3013

only video can prove it.
so, prove it.


I meant to say that it is possible to board when the ship is standing still. You are suggesting to take away the possibility of boarding from the players, because the passive sensors will 100% see any object at close range. I'm sure of that.


I see that you do not want to have a dialogue, but only want to push your idea, which will hurt the gameplay.
Similarly, the people who proposed to make "private warp" for ordinary ships, but the question: "how to intercept such ships?" no one wanted to answer. The same people suggested adding "logof timer" to the game so that the ship would disappear after the timer ended.

You understand that the mechanics you need for passive sensors are extremely labor intensive, will contain a lot of exploits and will destroy all stealth close contact options.
All you care about is mining the asteroid and not watching for anything but the sound of a siren when the radar sees someone.

As I said before, having the information that someone is nearby will cause players to use it all the time. For example, 20 player friends will put a base station unit in 100 places 1-2 kilometers apart. And at the first alarm they will fly there, or to their own carriers. Is that the kind of gameplay you want?

I will vouch for multiple people being able to one on 3. I know an entire group made of people who have done that. You can watch some of their exploits on CaptainJack's youtube channel in his starbase videos.

 

[Kmank]

I will vouch for multiple people being able to one on 3. I know an entire group made of people who have done that. You can watch some of their exploits on CaptainJack's youtube channel in his starbase videos.

Monke noises intensify.

 

[pavvvel]

From the very beginning you have been arguing against something you don't even understand. Nobody has been wanting for a 360 sensor thing that warn you if another ship is out there that can be automated with yolol. The suggestion was to implement real world like detection system with the real world limitations they have (ie don't magically tells you what you are listening to).



Min-Maxers disagree. A jack of all trades is never as good as a dedicated shop for any purpose. A miner with guns is never as good at mining as one with only crates and mining lasers, just like mining lasers on a hauler is dead weight. A fighter with crates is no fighter.



It all comes down how it is implemented. Actives means you emit to receive back sensor data, passive means you listen to what others emits. Both have their pros an cons in real life and could add a lot of cool tactics to the game.



Go ahead, make a good mining ship that is also good at fighting. If it was possible we would have many in the ship shops already.



Start by understanding what passive sensor actually means before telling everyone it's a bad idea.

I did and from your very first post I think you argue about the wrong thing. Go play Nebulous: Fleet Command and then tell us that passive sensors are no good.



There is no magical way to make such ship that would not involve a lot of compromises (bigger, slower, more expensive and not as durable as a true fighter). You don't need ship mounted guns to take out a mining ship, several of the hand held weapons would do, especially if the target did not notice you coming. Tripods works too and don't requires designing the ship from the ground up to have guns.



I do understand it, and I do think your are the one getting the wrong conclusions. But nothing anyone would say would convince you that "passive sensors" not equal "easy way to avoid all PVP" at this point. You just decided so instead of arguing how it could be implemented to avoid the pitfalls you anticipate.

I got it right. so that you can also understand, I added a screenshot. the author of the message asks to add passive 360° sensors. That's what I'm arguing about. they are not needed in the game and I have described the reasons a hundred times.

if you say that I got it wrong, then why are all these people arguing with me for so long..? explain to us all what was misunderstood?

about the construction of ships - I have also explained a hundred times. yes, it will carry less cargo. Yes, it is weaker than a warship. but he can defend himself, he can even attack (if he suddenly saw another player who can be attacked, for example, another miner).

about the multi-team: it was in the first message of the author of the thread. and now you're saying it's not profitable. imagine imagine that there will be 10,000 online. can you fly alone? will you have a chance without armor??

 

[pavvvel]

I will vouch for multiple people being able to one on 3. I know an entire group made of people who have done that. You can watch some of their exploits on CaptainJack's youtube channel in his starbase videos.

I understand that someone can. but in this case, he says that he fought 1 vs 3, on a weak cheap ship against expensive strong ships. and he says that he won. I very much doubt that a player who promotes casual mechanics is capable of this. either his opponents were very weak. I don't believe the words - let him show the video, or he's a liar

 

[[TAC] NASA]

I got it right. so that you can also understand, I added a screenshot. the author of the message asks to add passive 360° sensors. That's what I'm arguing about. they are not needed in the game and I have described the reasons a hundred times.

(Getting back on topic)

I personally think that they would be very balanced as the devs can just tweak their detection ranges and the emissions of ship parts.
And since there is probably going to be a lot of background noise, you won't be able to see very far with just the 360 sensors.

I intended it to be a short-range system that can warn you of any contacts. Since the sensor would probably be weak and you would need multiple of them for good coverage, finally the sensor readouts would be displayed through a shitty screen. It would be up to the player to make any sense of the readouts.

A good stealth ship with a proficient pilot would be able to blend in with the background noise AND find the target before being detected by using the frequency sensor.

Also yes, you can make yolol beep when the value is over something, but there could be random influxes of radiation and thus you would become desensitized and wouldn't care when there was an actual warning.

It would create a fun cat-and-mouse game, add a possibility for chance encounters, and make seeking PvP outside of the gate possible. Maybe it would even make piracy a viable method for grinding?

 

[pavvvel]

(Getting back on topic)

I personally think that they would be very balanced as the devs can just tweak their detection ranges and the emissions of ship parts.
And since there is probably going to be a lot of background noise, you won't be able to see very far with just the 360 sensors.

I intended it to be a short-range system that can warn you of any contacts. Since the sensor would probably be weak and you would need multiple of them for good coverage, finally the sensor readouts would be displayed through a shitty screen. It would be up to the player to make any sense of the readouts.

A good stealth ship with a proficient pilot would be able to blend in with the background noise AND find the target before being detected by using the frequency sensor.

Also yes, you can make yolol beep when the value is over something, but there could be random influxes of radiation and thus you would become desensitized and wouldn't care when there was an actual warning.

It would create a fun cat-and-mouse game, add a possibility for chance encounters, and make seeking PvP outside of the gate possible. Maybe it would even make piracy a viable method for grinding?

I don't think this is a good idea, not only because of the gameplay.
imagine the technical side. to receive data from 360, you will need a huge amount of invisible rays. this will cause a load on the server and on the client. under such a load, are you sure that it is possible to implement fine-tuning that will provide the ability to be stealthy. will either be detected or not. you're talking about noise that will drown out the signal. where will he come from? you have to render and load hundreds of asteroids into memory. and the problems don't end there. a large load will cause lags, due to which it will be impossible to load the lods of the opponent's ship. in the end it will be a clumsy mechanic that breaks the gameplay

 

[Foraven]

View attachment 4374

I got it right. so that you can also understand, I added a screenshot. the author of the message asks to add passive 360° sensors. That's what I'm arguing about. they are not needed in the game and I have described the reasons a hundred times.

Alright, I was wrong. The simpliest fix there would be to make this directional and have to be outside the ship. That would means you would need several of them, they take space outside the ship and could have blind spots. Having a 360 degree coverage would be difficult to get.

if you say that I got it wrong, then why are all these people arguing with me for so long..? explain to us all what was misunderstood?

My mistake, sorry.

about the construction of ships - I have also explained a hundred times. yes, it will carry less cargo. Yes, it is weaker than a warship. but he can defend himself, he can even attack (if he suddenly saw another player who can be attacked, for example, another miner).

I design ships, I am well aware of the compromises it would requires. Personally I would not bother arming/armoring a miner due to how much it would compromise it's effectiveness as a miner (covering all the weak spots, finding good placement for weapons, trying to avoid making it slower and not make it a pain to mine with it). Better making it faster so it can run away than armoring it up and forcing it to stand up and fight (and most likely, lose). Miners are usually covered in radiators, that's a huge weakspot that is difficult to avoid unless you want to swap coolant cells along fuel rods on a regular basis.

Edit: I don't really cares about attacking other players right now, that might change when company/faction rivalries will be a thing though.

about the multi-team: it was in the first message of the author of the thread. and now you're saying it's not profitable. imagine imagine that there will be 10,000 online. can you fly alone? will you have a chance without armor??

We will see when that happen. Most likely by then being part of a company/faction will be mandatory and pirate attacks common enough that pirate hunters patrolling the belt will be a thing. Right now it's easy enough to mine in the middle of nowhere with very low risk of meeting anyone.

 

[ChaosRifle]

 

[pavvvel]

My mistake, sorry.

No need to apologize, no problem.
"thanks" to the trolls, this thread is heavily littered.
I was a little bored to write the same thing 50 times, cause judging by their questions and messanges, they don't even try to read what I write.
didn't want you to think my posts were uncivilized.

you can make your ships any way you want.

But there's more to it than "money an hour", don't you agree?
For example, gameplay filled with random events (pirate attack, roleplay, combat, chase, defense, survival).
It's the random events that are the most interesting and memorable. And there is an opportunity to be prepared so as not to miss these events.
And when you fly a ship with no weapons or armor you forfeit the opportunity to get good gameplay. question: what will you do when you fly a bare ship and get attacked...? what will your actions be? assume your opponent is smart enough not to get blowed by your hand rocket launcher.
You will see that your opponent has 20 layers of glass and armor. You don't stand a chance.
Either you fly and see a pirate attacking a miner. You fly past when the miner dies...? But you don't have a weapon. Don't care about the risk of being killed, it doesn't matter.
And I would rather die defending myself than running away. and trying to take my chances, even if they are small.
I don't think it makes sense to maximize profits by reducing gameplay variation.
this is a full destruction game and for full gameplay the ship must be armed and protected.

Right now online is low. but i'm not sure many of those who are used to flying 1450 crate trucks will suddenly change their preferences when the online rate goes up.. when they get blown...1...2...3...5...times they will start blaming everyone around them and will ask the developer for casual mechanics.

passive sensors will kill gameplay. because of them there will not be many random events for players.

 

[Cavilier210]

I understand that someone can. but in this case, he says that he fought 1 vs 3, on a weak cheap ship against expensive strong ships. and he says that he won. I very much doubt that a player who promotes casual mechanics is capable of this. either his opponents were very weak. I don't believe the words - let him show the video, or he's a liar

Who did? I saw your post as I was skimming. The guys I know who do it regularly have highly specialized ships designed to make life the easiest they can for the pilot of their fighter. There is a lot of YOLOL that makes the operations of it smoother and more efficient. Anything less, and the ship isn't honestlyu capable of doing this.... without really crappy or AFK opponents.

 

[pavvvel]

Who did? I saw your post as I was skimming. The guys I know who do it regularly have highly specialized ships designed to make life the easiest they can for the pilot of their fighter. There is a lot of YOLOL that makes the operations of it smoother and more efficient. Anything less, and the ship isn't honestlyu capable of doing this.... without really crappy or AFK opponents.

Chaos rifle (post#27)

 

[Recatek]

But there's more to it than "money an hour", don't you agree?
For example, gameplay filled with random events (pirate attack, roleplay, combat, chase, defense, survival).
It's the random events that are the most interesting and memorable.

I don't really agree, no. I think there are plenty of other opportunities for PvP where both parties are ready, willing, and happy to do so. Jumping miners, many of whom don't want to fight (and have little economic incentive to, as I've described in detail already), isn't what I'd consider prime gameplay here. Especially when those miners don't really have any counterplay other than "make your ship a worse and more expensive miner and hope you can still beat a dedicated pirate with it".

And I would rather die defending myself than running away. and trying to take my chances, even if they are small.
I don't think it makes sense to maximize profits by reducing gameplay variation.
this is a full destruction game and for full gameplay the ship must be armed and protected.

Anyone who is optimizing for mining income would probably disagree with this, since this is a good way to not make as much mining as you could be. Mining is generally something you want to do quickly and efficiently, and then move on from to go do other things. Taking fights in a bad warship/miner hybrid just slows down that process.

 

[pavvvel]

I don't really agree, no. I think there are plenty of other opportunities for PvP where both parties are ready, willing, and happy to do so. Jumping miners, many of whom don't want to fight (and have little economic incentive to, as I've described in detail already), isn't what I'd consider prime gameplay here. Especially when those miners don't really have any counterplay other than "make your ship a worse and more expensive miner and hope you can still beat a dedicated pirate with it".

The most interesting pvp is not when both opponents are ready. the best pvp is when someone doesn't expect it and didn't plan it.
consensual pvp is uninteresting, it's "pvp for pvp's sake," which makes no sense whatsoever.

Anyone who is optimizing for mining income would probably disagree with this, since this is a good way to not make as much mining as you could be. Mining is generally something you want to do quickly and efficiently, and then move on from to go do other things. Taking fights in a bad warship/miner hybrid just slows down that process.

I have never been interested in the opinion of the "imaginary majority.

Especially since there is no proof whatsoever of what you say.
And if you imagine that the online will be 10,000, you are unlikely to be able not to meet with other players while mining.