Dev Question - What, Exactly, does "Safe Zone" Mean?

[Atreties]

So, we know that starting areas will be "Safe Zones".

We also know that players will be able to create their own safe zones by making their stations large enough.

We also know that the only way to despawn your ship and protect it is to do so at a station safe zone.


BUT - it's also been stated that online defending/allied ships near safezones are never invulnerable (can be destroyed by attackers). So, that raises the question: What exactly do safezones actually do?

Along these lines, I have several questions:

1. I have a handheld gun in a starter zone. I aim it at another player and press fire. What happens? (Does it fire & hit & and do no damage, can it not fire at all, does it fire and do some damage?)
2. I have a mounted ship cannon in a starter zone. I aim it at another player's ship and press fire. What happens?
3. I have a gun, laser tool, or ship mounted cannon in a starter zone. I aim and fire them at the station itself. What happens?
4. I have a handheld gun in an enemy playermade faction station that's not my faction - I am a hostile aggressor. I aim this gun at a defending player who's a part of the owning faction (Defender), and I fire. What happens?
5. I have a ship-mounted cannon in an enemy playermade faction station that's not my faction - I am a hostile aggressor. I aim it at some structure on the defending station itself, and I fire. What happens?
6. After a long war and capture time, my player-faction takes control and ownership of another faction's station. What happens to all of the defending ships that were previously offline-docked at this station?
7. I have a gun, ship cannon, or laser tool in MY faction station (which is large enough for a safe zone). I aim these at some structure of MY station and fire. What happens?

I know these may seem like i'm nitpicking, but safezone function is a very big deal in sandbox PvP games. If they do too much, they can completely stifle and ruin the game. If they do to little, they are pointless at protecting the people they were designed to protect. "Safe Zone" means many different things to different people, so getting exact mechanics is important to be able to provide informed, accurate feedback.

 

[Jetthetank]

answer: SALTBERIA for you!

 

[LauriFB]

This is what we have figured so far: Starting safe zones are full safe zones - ie. nothing can be destroyed, no-one can be killed, etc.

Dynamic safe zones (established outside starting safe zone) have wide range of options and their ownership is changed by military vessels, which are never protected at those safe zones.

We are still middle of implementing the dynamic safe zones, so we'll figure out details when we are there, and continue fine-tuning them over the course of alpha and early access.

 

[Atreties]

Starting safe zones are full safe zones - ie. nothing can be destroyed

And what happens when you try? Does the gun not shoot at all, or does it shoot, hit the guy, and nothing happens?

I ask, because either of these common methods has their issues impacting new-player experience.

 

[Jetthetank]

Maybe have it so you cant pul your gun out?

 

[CalenLoki]

All damage is turned off seems like best solution. After all ramming with ship doesn't require any weapons.
Letting players shoot seems like good idea, as you may want to test weapon systems or just practice shooting.
Rental plots should also allow building safe zone removal generators. If you want to have training room or durability testing lab inside your house.

With player made safe zones IMO it should only protect station itself. Why? Because every ship is potential ramming weapon. Or portable shield. And you can protect your ships in hangars, and endos in rooms. So as long as the immobile station is safe, noone can grief offline players.

The mechanics for taking down player made safe zone shouldn't IMO require long time presence of unprotected ships. That defeats the whole purpose and kill factions too small to have someone online 24/7.
Would be better if besieging faction had to build siege camo (also station, also protected from night raids). Then mount and activate expensive single use device that needs days to charge up. After charging up it deactivates all safe zones within x distance (including it's own) for 2h or until destroyed.
Charge-up should be noticeable for anyone within effective range. And the expected time of encounter as well.
Of course device cost should be proportional to station size and age.

 

[Horib]

What is the differentiator between a military vessel and a civilian vessel?

 

[CalenLoki]

What is the differentiator between a military vessel and a civilian vessel?

None. Both can ram and block shoots.

 

[Horib]

None. Both can ram and block shoots.

Eh, not the answer I was after. What is the difference. In what makes a vessel a military vessel and not a civilian vessel.

 

[CalenLoki]

LauriFBToday at 3:17 PM
yes, they have to be declared to be against you so their presence would count towards lowering the protection they can also be for you, and then their presence counts towards the safe zone the idea is that any ship who has military status enabled can contribute for or against (or be neutral) safe zones, but also all military ships won't have any protection ever, not even within own faction safe zones

Eh, not the answer I was after. What is the difference. In what makes a vessel a military vessel and not a civilian vessel.

Here's quote from Lauri. If you're at war with station owner, you can declare a ship as military. So it boils down to what you consider military. You can keep frigate full of weapons as civilian.

Such system has so many loopholes that it's hard to choose which one to abuse.

 

[Horib]

Ah ok, interesting. Thanks for the clarification

 

[YakkoForever]

CalenLoki could you lighten us to those loop holes?

in safe zones you cannot attack. further yeah you can switch to military at any time but if you can do that then why would then have ships set to military for you to attack?
maybe you are referring to swapping rapidly between civilian and military? if that even gets in the game it will be an easy fix of adding a cool down timer.
maybe you want to sit in a civilian zone and prey on merchants just outside the zone. would the station welcome you back? I doubt it.

 

[CalenLoki]

1. I use civilian ship as mobile shield. As it's protected by safe zone, I can just park it right in front of military vessel. Or even make it big enough that whole military ship is inside, with only guns pointing out. And it can be built out of cardboard and still stop railguns.
2. Civilian boarding craft. Deploy your boarding squad without being affected by enemy fire.
Again, built of cheap cardboard.
3. As defender, you can keep military ships inside the base (i.e in hangar), making them de facto protected by safe zone (can't shoot at them)
4. Without using 3. your military ships are prone to night riding.
5. If you don't have enough people to willing to guard besieging fleet 24/7 (so sitting inside looking at empty sky for hours), you are excluded from any station attack. Because your fleet can be night raided.
6. Using civilian ship with big engines to push enemy military ship into collision.

That was quick. But there's probably way more.

 

[YakkoForever]

thanks, for sharing those. I hope a dev reads them and recognize the problem.

 

[Recatek]

The mechanics for taking down player made safe zone shouldn't IMO require long time presence of unprotected ships. That defeats the whole purpose and kill factions too small to have someone online 24/7.
Would be better if besieging faction had to build siege camo (also station, also protected from night raids). Then mount and activate expensive single use device that needs days to charge up. After charging up it deactivates all safe zones within x distance (including it's own) for 2h or until destroyed.
Charge-up should be noticeable for anyone within effective range. And the expected time of encounter as well.
Of course device cost should be proportional to station size and age.

I would also see something like that. MMO territory siege and war declaration mechanics have been a more or less solved problem for over a decade now. I don't see why the wheel needs to be reinvented here. Look at Shadowbane's city siege/bane stone system (or Darkfall's), or EVE's POS reinforced shield system as canonical examples. If months of work can evaporate overnight, people just quit the game. I've seen more than one guild collapse after a major siege loss.

Ultimately, if I'm going to invest weeks or months into a station, and someone wants to destroy or seriously damage it, I would expect at least 48 hours notice, and for the fight to happen within a 2 hour time window at a reasonable time of day for me to defend it (evening in my time zone, or close to it). As the defender I have far more to lose than the attacker, and so time considerations should lean in my favor.

Day-to-day conflicts should be over other, smaller, less important objectives. Stations represent a major investment, are at the core of a faction's identity, and sieging one should be a story-worthy capstone gameplay experience representing an investment of resources on both sides. It certainly shouldn't be something you do completely unopposed while the other team is sleeping or at school/work.

 

[Vloshko]

And what happens when you try? Does the gun not shoot at all, or does it shoot, hit the guy, and nothing happens?

I ask, because either of these common methods has their issues impacting new-player experience.

Before someone asks, I'll explain a few of the important reasons:

If the gun doesn't shoot at all: First, it's a hugeeee bummer. Second, it can add unnecessary confusion and/or a major misrepresentation; as a result it will hurt newbs.

If the gun shoots and doesn't do damage: Major misrepresentation; as a result it will hurt newbs.

 

[Atreties]

Before someone asks, I'll explain a few of the important reasons:

If the gun doesn't shoot at all: First, it's a hugeeee bummer. Second, it can add unnecessary confusion and/or a major misrepresentation; as a result it will hurt newbs.

If the gun shoots and doesn't do damage: Major misrepresentation; as a result it will hurt newbs.

Exactly. My suggestion to help alleviate these issues is to implement some sort of shield-ripple shimmer effect when shooting things in the starter safe zone. Something to indicate that damage is not getting thru, and that things are prevented. It will also let less informed newbs know that THEY are safe, too.

I've seen several times where a noob runs away scared from someone harmlessly shooting at them in a safezone.

Obviously this isn't a huge priority or anything, but if you have a Vfx guy get some downtime or you get a new one that needs a starter project, it's worth considering.

 

[Whiteagle]

Dynamic safe zones (established outside starting safe zone) have wide range of options and their ownership is changed by military vessels, which are never protected at those safe zones.

What is the differentiator between a military vessel and a civilian vessel?

Indeed, do you have to put an Identifying Transponder on your "Military" Vessels for it to count?

 

[DrunkRussianBear]

1. I use civilian ship as mobile shield. As it's protected by safe zone, I can just park it right in front of military vessel. Or even make it big enough that whole military ship is inside, with only guns pointing out. And it can be built out of cardboard and still stop railguns.
2. Civilian boarding craft. Deploy your boarding squad without being affected by enemy fire.
Again, built of cheap cardboard.
3. As defender, you can keep military ships inside the base (i.e in hangar), making them de facto protected by safe zone (can't shoot at them)
4. Without using 3. your military ships are prone to night riding.
5. If you don't have enough people to willing to guard besieging fleet 24/7 (so sitting inside looking at empty sky for hours), you are excluded from any station attack. Because your fleet can be night raided.
6. Using civilian ship with big engines to push enemy military ship into collision.

That was quick. But there's probably way more.

I mentioned this in another threat, its too easily abused.

 

[NoName]

Exactly. My suggestion to help alleviate these issues is to implement some sort of shield-ripple shimmer effect when shooting things in the starter safe zone. Something to indicate that damage is not getting thru, and that things are prevented. It will also let less informed newbs know that THEY are safe, too.

I've seen several times where a noob runs away scared from someone harmlessly shooting at them in a safezone.

Obviously this isn't a huge priority or anything, but if you have a Vfx guy get some downtime or you get a new one that needs a starter project, it's worth considering.

Very true