Piracy and Thievery

Vexus

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#61
Yes, they will need to balance it where movement isn't free and fuel actually matters. And yes, you can build outposts - now you're understanding. Weak, lightly defended outposts that are rich with materials. You can expand, too, by making lots of outposts, each time making any individual outpost not as strong, because you didn't consolidate resources and defenses. As you expand in 3D space, the inverse-square law dictates how well you will perform. There is value in making many outposts, or consolidating all resources into a capital city, and even both. But all of this takes time, effort, coordination, efficiency and skill. It doesn't matter how many outposts, or how many people, but it does matter how much fuel is spent to move around the game world, and how much you get from gathering. So you are right, we don't know how fast fuel is going to deplete, but if they balance it where the fuel cost matters at all, then you hit that law eventually. In fact you hit it every time you go out, spend 1 minute flying to mine an asteroid, 2 minutes to fly back (you weigh more), and the next time you go out, it's 2 minutes to get to an asteroid, and 4 minutes back, and so on.

Likewise, if you have an outpost under attack, and send 1000 ships to defend it - and there are only 10 attackers who faked you into thinking it was a massive attack - you wasted a lot of fuel for nothing. Efficiency becomes much more important than leveraging brute force. It is not something you can combat. You will have to bend to the will of the inverse-square law, which will cull inefficient large groups, and only the most organized and efficient groups will maintain status as superpowers, just like in real life.
 

Jetthetank

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#62
It's called the "inverse-square law" and Starbase is utilizing this. I think this may be one of the most critical components of the game, too, which will make Starbase revolutionary. It's not about how it could take years to make a dent in the asteroid belt, it's the fact that moving costs fuel in Starbase, and more fuel is expended based on the weight of the material you are transporting. As you clear 100km, it now costs more fuel to go out to get resources, and more fuel to get back with your loot. As such, the cost of fuel grows exponentially based on distance. And since you cannot just pick up your stuff and move it freely - because all the material has weight/mass and makes you spend more fuel to move it, you run into the inverse-square law.

As for warp-gates, that's for moving from the gas giant to the moon - not for moving around the in game world. It's not going to be a 'thing' that everyone can set up and fast travel to new nodes of resources.
I would imagine that warp gates' when they are implemented, wouldnt necessarily be used for extending your reach within the asteroid belt, 1 because it is just wasting resources on extending your reach when everyone else will be moving along the belt, 2 Warp gates are probably not cheap and would cost a decent amount/time to build, also have to weigh the dangers of warp travel to your ship as it was mentioned about radiation effects, which will cause some dynamics.
I think it will be exciting as the game develops dynamically, because a station build within a surplus of resources may prosper and support a large faction for a time, but if they dont use there current stream of resources for thinking about the future of their faction, as in using resources to support exploration teams for warp gates for further colonization, then they are going to collapse internally making them very vulnerable, which then shifts the power to the other factions, or if noone monitors their resources, and just want to duke it out on the belt, then that will melt the society, returning the power to the pirates and mercenaries that I'd assume will ensue at launch.
 

Huursa

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53
#63
Yes, they will need to balance it where movement isn't free and fuel actually matters. And yes, you can build outposts - now you're understanding. Weak, lightly defended outposts that are rich with materials. You can expand, too, by making lots of outposts, each time making any individual outpost not as strong, because you didn't consolidate resources and defenses. As you expand in 3D space, the inverse-square law dictates how well you will perform. There is value in making many outposts, or consolidating all resources into a capital city, and even both. But all of this takes time, effort, coordination, efficiency and skill. It doesn't matter how many outposts, or how many people, but it does matter how much fuel is spent to move around the game world, and how much you get from gathering. So you are right, we don't know how fast fuel is going to deplete, but if they balance it where the fuel cost matters at all, then you hit that law eventually. In fact you hit it every time you go out, spend 1 minute flying to mine an asteroid, 2 minutes to fly back (you weigh more), and the next time you go out, it's 2 minutes to get to an asteroid, and 4 minutes back, and so on.

Likewise, if you have an outpost under attack, and send 1000 ships to defend it - and there are only 10 attackers who faked you into thinking it was a massive attack - you wasted a lot of fuel for nothing. Efficiency becomes much more important than leveraging brute force. It is not something you can combat. You will have to bend to the will of the inverse-square law, which will cull inefficient large groups, and only the most organized and efficient groups will maintain status as superpowers, just like in real life.
No one is that dumb to send 1k ships for a fkin outpost lol. And nop as i said before the asteroids ar so many that the law is weak as fk. Also if u do send a fleet they just gon refuel from the asteroids around em? Thats how u do it in No Man Sky. And even if u somehow deplete all the asteroids in 1000km range hows that bad? U always gon have fuel as soon as u got asteroids close to u, if u got minin ship 1000km away from u and theres no asteroids in between thats whatever cuz the minin ship will always hav enough fuel to comeback home cuz hes always in an area filled with asteroids. And if u do end up with very large void around yo station just build a new one bruh and use bed travel(suicide and respawn at yo station bed) to hop between yo stations. The trick is when u goin home with the mined fuel to always have enough fuel for the next trip which u always will. Doesnt matter if it takes 100x more fuel than before u started clearin the area, also havin a large void around yo station is OP cuz then enemies gon hav to farm up tons of fuel to invade u.
 
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Jetthetank

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#64
Lol, not if you have mined all the asteroids within a reasonable area, but then again, depending how you manage your resources, you might be storing too much of a valuable resource or fuel that the need to defend it with a horde viable.
but all this hinges on specific interactions, and player choices.
you may have a station that harbours thousands of players...
 

Vexus

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#65
Yeah the "warp gates" have been talked about as only being for transporting from the gas giant to the moon (and yes, potentially other planets which are in-game-light-years-away where local fuel is irrelevant) when the time comes and the players funnel resources enough to make that project happen. I think in-game fast travel will be possible on a player-character level, like transporting your "robot code" to another safe-zone station (player teleport to mega-stations, but not to player-stations) but without being able to move any resources or anything else (spawning in an empty robot basically).

As far as no one sending 1k ships for an outpost, that's not the point. If you send 10 ships to deal with 10 other ships, you're spending resources to get there and so on in doing so. I was just pointing out if you are inefficient, if you send 50 ships to defend a station under attack from 10 ships - and those 10 ships just leave... then your group needs to decide to either sit around with 50 ships at this outpost or ... go home? Spend the fuel to go home? And then your home base becomes under attack - so your ships spend the fuel to go alllll the way back. And if your 50 ships get wiped by the 10 ships, due to skill? Then you just donated resources to this very experienced, efficient and competent group (thanks!).

And sure, there will be resources out in the wild, and fleets will be able to move within the belt only stopping every now and then to 'refuel'. It should be pretty cool. And every time they stop they are vulnerable, and all their movement away from their cities and outposts makes them vulnerable. Pushing a big attack is an investment in resources - if they run out, just like in real life, they will fail. If they get counter attacked, there's no quick way home, and they will fail. They cannot infinitely leverage infinite resources. I'm not trying to convince you of this, it's a law of physics that exists in Starbase. You either get it or you don't.
 
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Huursa

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#66
Yeah the "warp gates" have been talked about as only being for transporting from the gas giant to the moon (and yes, potentially other planets which are in-game-light-years-away where local fuel is irrelevant) when the time comes and the players funnel resources enough to make that project happen. I think in-game fast travel will be possible on a player-character level, like transporting your "robot code" to another safe-zone station (player teleport to mega-stations, but not to player-stations) but without being able to move any resources or anything else (spawning in an empty robot basically).

As far as no one sending 1k ships for an outpost, that's not the point. If you send 10 ships to deal with 10 other ships, you're spending resources to get there and so on in doing so. I was just pointing out if you are inefficient, if you send 50 ships to defend a station under attack from 10 ships - and those 10 ships just leave... then your group needs to decide to either sit around with 50 ships at this outpost or ... go home? Spend the fuel to go home? And then your home base becomes under attack - so your ships spend the fuel to go alllll the way back. And if your 50 ships get wiped by the 10 ships, due to skill? Then you just donated resources to this very experienced, efficient and competent group (thanks!).

And sure, there will be resources out in the wild, and fleets will be able to move within the belt only stopping every now and then to 'refuel'. It should be pretty cool. And every time they stop they are vulnerable, and all their movement away from their cities and outposts makes them vulnerable. Pushing a big attack is an investment in resources - if they run out, just like in real life, they will fail. If they get counter attacked, there's no quick way home, and they will fail. They cannot infinitely leverage infinite resources. I'm not trying to convince you of this, it's a law of physics that exists in Starbase. You either get it or you don't.
No ones vulnerable, u dont know how war works. No one weaker than u will even dare to think bout jumpin on u cuz they know if they do it they gettin wiped tomorrow. Big fleets will be untouched cuz ppl gon be scared of retaliation. If u were to even shoot a flame arrow at a CSTG galleon on ATLAS, tomorrow they gon be docked outside yo hut bombardin the harbor and u gon realize touchin the big bois makes u go homeless.
 

Vexus

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#67
For everyone else who understands a bit about physics - @Huursa is the kind of player you have to worry about in the big groups. As such, you have nothing to worry about when it comes to most big groups :) You'll only have to worry about the big groups who are skilled, efficient, and drawn to conflict only when it's necessary. It's going to be a lot of fun.
 

Huursa

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#68
For everyone else who understands a bit about physics - @Huursa is the kind of player you have to worry about in the big groups. As such, you have nothing to worry about when it comes to most big groups :) You'll only have to worry about the big groups who are skilled, efficient, and drawn to conflict only when it's necessary. It's going to be a lot of fun.
Conflict when its necessary doesnt exist to us. U wage war cuz u can and its fun forever, theres no peace time, its blowin shit up and leashin bobs till the game dies.
 

Jetthetank

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#69
Yea, I was awakened to the reality of physics in Eng. school. :(
on the other hand, This is a game with physics! so what could go wrong, I hope to see alot of deviousness, freindships, alliances, etc..
Its going to be a ride mates!
 

Huursa

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#70
Yea, I was awakened to the reality of physics in Eng. school. :(
on the other hand, This is a game with physics! so what could go wrong, I hope to see alot of deviousness, freindships, alliances, etc..
Its going to be a ride mates!
More like a slaughter and a lot of slavery.
 

Huursa

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#72
Sounds like you are going to be at the head of it, blowing up everything and everyone until you kill the game.
Lol, we will see how it plays out.
Game cant be killed, bobs always can hide in the safe zone which is perfect i dont want the game to die like ATLAS did.
 

Jetthetank

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#73
Conflict when its necessary doesnt exist to us. U wage war cuz u can and its fun forever, theres no peace time, its blowin shit up and leashin bobs till the game dies.
Then what does this post mean? I am confused.
It sounds like you wanna gloriously Zerg everyone until the game is killed.
 

Huursa

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#74
Then what does this post mean? I am confused.
It sounds like you wanna gloriously Zerg everyone until the game is killed.
Nop slaugher anyone we want until the game eventually dies from old age, no game lasts forever.
 
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Atreties

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#75
Big fleets will be untouched cuz ppl gon be scared of retaliation.
Except history completely disproves you.

CSTG was raided in their home town constantly. We were one of the ones doing it. Several times we snuck in, raided massive resource stores, and either destroyed or stole hundred upon hundreds of man-hours worth of resources. We raided ships, main bases, outposts, you name it. CSTG were a joke whose only strength was exploiting and full-on cheating to kingdom come, or in using numbers that overwhelmed server caps.

When CSTG finally figured out where we were, they tried all of that, and still lost their attack of 150+ people to our 10. They were even kind enough to leave the wrecks of several galleons and brigs that we sank, after they turned tail and ran.

Huge groups can obviously be powerful, but use a better example than CSTG if you wanna make a point.
 

Huursa

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#76
Except history completely disproves you.

CSTG was raided in their home town constantly. We were one of the ones doing it. Several times we snuck in, raided massive resource stores, and either destroyed or stole hundred upon hundreds of man-hours worth of resources. We raided ships, main bases, outposts, you name it. CSTG were a joke whose only strength was exploiting and full-on cheating to kingdom come, or in using numbers that overwhelmed server caps.

When CSTG finally figured out where we were, they tried all of that, and still lost their attack of 150+ people to our 10. They were even kind enough to leave the wrecks of several galleons and brigs that we sank, after they turned tail and ran.

Huge groups can obviously be powerful, but use a better example than CSTG if you wanna make a point.
Whats yo tribe?Also CSTG sux at pvp but can still beat the shit out of u cuz no matter how many times u raid em they keep comin, they like robots. Even if u did win 10 vs 150 CSTG still exists while yo tribe prolly doesnt, and if they were so weak J4 wouldnt have fallen but the fact is CSTG can stomp tribes even if it costs em big time that doesnt matter cuz they are out farmin everyone by a large margin.
 
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#77
cuz they are out farmin everyone by a large margin.
Have fun when you don't have a tribe member intelligent enough to build an efficient ship and constantly have your ore stolen by a faction with twice as many members as your tribe. Also, good luck wiping a faction through an established safe zone.
 

Huursa

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#78
Have fun when you don't have a tribe member intelligent enough to build an efficient ship and constantly have your ore stolen by a faction with twice as many members as your tribe. Also, good luck wiping a faction through an established safe zone.
Nobody asked what members your tribe has bruh, onto the safe zone shit thats actually perfect cuz the game aint gon die due to bobs quittin the game, they always gon have a safe zone to hide in and we get a continious stream of bobs ready to be beamed.
 

NoName

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Messages
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#80
Whats yo tribe?Also CSTG sux at pvp but can still beat the shit out of u cuz no matter how many times u raid em they keep comin, they like robots. Even if u did win 10 vs 150 CSTG still exists while yo tribe prolly doesnt, and if they were so weak J4 wouldnt have fallen but the fact is CSTG can stomp tribes even if it costs em big time that doesnt matter cuz they are out farmin everyone by a large margin.
I think you are failing to recognize the biggest difference between ark/atlas and starbase. In starbase people can be completely mobile, their ship will be their home, whereas in Arklas everyone was forced into making permanent bases that were always attack-able and couldn't feasibly move. This will be HUGELY different in starbase as when you want to log off your "base" (unless you are a mega-corp (to borrow EVE terminology)) you just go to one of the safe starter stations and log off your ship in your rental lot. This means CSTG and the likes will be unable to offline raid bases of people better than them or just overwhelm them with the amount of people they can field over an entire day. This means CSTG's main strat (attack em until they have to sleep) is moot as when someone has to sleep or want to get off for the day they can without fearing that CSTG is going to attack them while they sleep.

Here is a little lesson in warfare for free Huursa: Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare in which a small group of combatants, such as paramilitary personnel, armed civilians, or irregulars use militarytactics including ambushes, sabotage, raids, pettywarfare, hit-and-run tactics, and mobility, to fight a larger and less-mobile traditional military.

Incase you are wondering what that means I will spell it out for you. In starbase smaller factions will be viable, they won't be forced into having permanent raid-able bases that larger groups like CSTG and the like can exploit. Both types of groups will have their ups and downs but neither will be necessarily superior to the other like in Arklas. What this means is that Starbase is going to be a typical well designed MMO where small highly skilled and organized groups will be able to thrive just as well as large unorganized/unskilled groups like CSTG.
 
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