Piracy and Thievery

[Spartan Shipyards]

Griefing is shutting someone out of the ability to play the game for no other reason than to cause the other player grief.

If a player or groups of players target people with the express purpose of just doing it because "we can" and for no material or resource gain, that seems like griefing to me, exploits or not.

 

[NoName]

If a player or groups of players target people with the express purpose of just doing it because "we can" and for no material or resource gain, that seems like griefing to me, exploits or not.

What if the purpose is PvP? You can't just assume someone else's intentions. What atreties said is the correct definition.

 

[Atreties]

If a player or groups of players target people with the express purpose of just doing it because "we can" and for no material or resource gain, that seems like griefing to me, exploits or not.

1: It does not shut down anyone's ability to play the game

2: PvP for the sake of enjoyment of PvP itself is a reason beyond simply to cause grief, and falls under "because we can"

3: In the vast majority of cases, the "because we can" fight reasoning is a shortening of "because we have the ability to take your stuff, we will". Very few PvP groups will just let valuable resources sit there for some potential enemy to get.

4: No one is obligated to explain their reasoning to you or anyone. An aggressor not stating their reasons is not the same thing as them not having reasons.

 

[CalenLoki]

There is no such thing as PvP for the sake of PvP. There is always a reason.

Hypotetical situation of you attacking newbie on space scouter flying somewhere with a gun-loaded frigate.
Is it an challenge to you? No. He has no chance.
Material gain? No. He has nothing.
Desire for respect? No. Obviously everyone will think you're pussy who is afraid of fighting equal.
Protecting your possession? No, he's flying somewhere else than your base/ship.
Revenge? No, you never met him before.

Then what is?
Desire do see salty tears? That's greiefing.
And thus is equal to teamkilling in games where it's allowed, jumping in front of teammates guns in games that punish TK, blocking your teammates passage, ect. In general being a dick.
Or maybe something else? Enlighten us.

 

[Atreties]

There is no such thing as PvP for the sake of PvP. There is always a reason.

Hypotetical situation of you attacking newbie on space scouter flying somewhere with a gun-loaded frigate.
Is it an challenge to you? No. He has no chance.
Material gain? No. He has nothing.
Desire for respect? No. Obviously everyone will think you're pussy who is afraid of fighting equal.
Protecting your possession? No, he's flying somewhere else than your base/ship.
Revenge? No, you never met him before.

Then what is?
Desire do see salty tears? That's greiefing.
And thus is equal to teamkilling in games where it's allowed, jumping in front of teammates guns in games that punish TK, blocking your teammates passage, ect. In general being a dick.
Or maybe something else? Enlighten us.

Classic example of a post from someone that has never actually been aggressive or even tried putting themselves into the mindset of someone aggressive in an open PvP game.

Let's break this down for the class.

Hypotetical situation of you attacking newbie on space scouter flying somewhere with a gun-loaded frigate.

How exactly do I know they are a noob?

Is it an challenge to you? No. He has no chance.

Just because you disrespect and underestimate opponents doesn't mean that I do. ANY ship has the potential to be a threat. Small and unassuming ships can still have suicide explosives, and always have a potential boarding threat. Boarders can easily cut into a big ship, shoot and kill defenders, find your generator, and destroy your whole ship. Underestimating people is one of the fastest ways to die in open PvP games.

Desire for respect? No. Obviously everyone will think you're pussy who is afraid of fighting equal.

Respect comes in different forms. You're describing the admiration/adoration type. There's also the fear-based type. We got to the point in Worlds Adrift (similar to SB in many ways) where people would find out it's us and simply instantly surrender, or instantly scuttle their ship.

Also, fighting someone unassuming and of a "lower level" does not preclude the ability and desire to fight/pirate an equal.

Lastly, here's a very good quote from EVE:

"If you're in an equal fight, someone's done something wrong."

Protecting your possession? No, he's flying somewhere else than your base/ship.

First, we've gone over the fact that

And what if my the posession I am protecting is my claim to this region of space and all the resources in it?

What if I'm protecting secrecy? What if a big building operation is happening nearby and I want no one to see? What if I've discovered a vein of an extremely valuable resource and I want no one at all to find out about it until we've mined it out?

There is no such thing as PvP for the sake of PvP. There is always a reason.

This is self-evidently and obviously false. Tons and tons of games exist where the only reason to play is the fun of the competition.

Also, especially in a voxel-based game, seeing explosions and destruction is always a fun and a reason in itself.

------

Ultimately, here is the one big takeaway:

You don't know everything, and neither does anyone else.

You don't know all the possible reasons someone would have for attacking. I don't know all there is to know about a potential target's value or abilities or goals, or even identity. And ALL of these potential unknowns are reasons for conflict in open PvP games.


Such is their beauty and appeal.

 

[Aquila Osmund]

I think Atreties sums it up, even if there isn't material to be gained or an enemy to be killed from destroying a ship, information control is worth its weight in materials. Everyone is heading somewhere, and that somewhere is likely going to give them something to get ahead, stopping that also has its own value.

 

[CalenLoki]

Following that mindset there is no such thing as griefing in games at all.
After all by teamkilling you establish your position as the person with the highest score, by preventing others from doing so, which may be your personal goal. Or shooting naked people at the beach in dayz.

@Atreties do I really have to literally write everything with the smallest details in the hypothetical situation for you? Isn't the general idea clear?

You can't know if he's noob. That's true. I just assumed that there is some way to identify him as "someone you don't know as enemy or open ally of your enemies". Aka random guy. Just to exclude personal revenge or war as a reason.

By "somewhere" I mean "not towards you/your ship/your base/valuable resources you know about". Just passing by in some random location. It also means he's not shooting at you, just flying.
I.e. right out of initial safezone, like 1000 noobs before him. Or in open space, outside asteroid belt.

Fear and respect are two different emotions. Both can lead to the same results (them obeying your request/command). Getting satisfaction from having others fear you is just as sociopathic as from their grief.
Shooting someone on sight will never lead to him surrendering in the future. Quite the opposite.

Fun of competition comparable to kicking newborn puppy or racing against bicycle in motorbike on a straight road. That's quite low requirements to feel superior and victorious.

Joy of seeing stuff explode is finally a valid reason. Although offline sandbox would be just as good for that.

The last part indicates that your goal is to make all the other players being forced back into safezones or quit the game forever. As you want to destroy all their potential to improve and provide real challenge.
That's quite sad.
And what you gonna do when you succeed? Quit the dead game to find some other to destroy?

 

[Spartan Shipyards]

There's a reason games like these die before they really take off. It's because people like @Atreties will always view some fresh spawn noob taking one step out of a safezone as a potential "threat". This forces new players to quit and turns off potential players. And once all that's left are other players like them, they too also quit because they arn't interested in fighting others capable of fighting back equally.

Look, I'm not arguing for some idealistic space utopia. I know combat and subterfuge is part of the game. All I'm arguing for are proper safeguards for new player expirence such as System Secruity.

 

[Bolshenose]

Following that mindset there is no such thing as griefing in games at all.
After all by teamkilling you establish your position as the person with the highest score, by preventing others from doing so, which may be your personal goal. Or shooting naked people at the beach in dayz.

@Atreties do I really have to literally write everything with the smallest details in the hypothetical situation for you? Isn't the general idea clear?

You can't know if he's noob. That's true. I just assumed that there is some way to identify him as "someone you don't know as enemy or open ally of your enemies". Aka random guy. Just to exclude personal revenge or war as a reason.

By "somewhere" I mean "not towards you/your ship/your base/valuable resources you know about". Just passing by in some random location. It also means he's not shooting at you, just flying.
I.e. right out of initial safezone, like 1000 noobs before him. Or in open space, outside asteroid belt.

Fear and respect are two different emotions. Both can lead to the same results (them obeying your request/command). Getting satisfaction from having others fear you is just as sociopathic as from their grief.
Shooting someone on sight will never lead to him surrendering in the future. Quite the opposite.

Fun of competition comparable to kicking newborn puppy or racing against bicycle in motorbike on a straight road. That's quite low requirements to feel superior and victorious.

Joy of seeing stuff explode is finally a valid reason. Although offline sandbox would be just as good for that.

The last part indicates that your goal is to make all the other players being forced back into safezones or quit the game forever. As you want to destroy all their potential to improve and provide real challenge.
That's quite sad.
And what you gonna do when you succeed? Quit the dead game to find some other to destroy?

Have you ever heard of Sea of Thieves? In that game, everyone is a pirate. Weither not you play as a friendly pirate is up to you. PVP is one of the strongest points in that game. The threat of losing all your hard earned loot by someone who sails up to you and skins your ship is a huge aspect of the game. You have no way of knowing if there is loot on another crew's ship unless they have it on the top deck displayed for all to see. When me and my friends play, we don't even bother getting quests to get our own loot, we sink other ships and if they happen to have some treasure then we take it and hand it in at some point if we never get sunk. The reason we hunt other ships instead of doing our own quests is because PVP is fun. Thats the only reason. Loot is a secondary little bonus we barely care about. Its not greifing because we are not impeding their ability to play the game. Crews like us are part of the game, and a threat that others have to deal with. Even if we are the biggest ship in the game, if we see the smallest one sailing by, we will sail right up to it, pelt it with cannon balls, and sink them to the depths of the ocean. Just because its the smallest, doesn't mean it cant sink us. Me and my bud were in the smallest ship. It mans 2 people max. We sunk 2 of the biggest ships back to back. They man 4 people max. The only time something can be called greifing is if you are using the game in unintended ways to impede ones ability to play.

I do not care if you are a noob, I do not care if you have nothing, I do not care if you are ignoring me, and I do not care for respect. I am a pirate, and I enjoy PVP, so guess what, I am attacking you.

BTW, if they have a ship, then they already have something of value. I'll scrap that ship or use it myself.

 

[Aquila Osmund]

Following that mindset there is no such thing as griefing in games at all.
After all by teamkilling you establish your position as the person with the highest score, by preventing others from doing so, which may be your personal goal. Or shooting naked people at the beach in dayz.

I think you're playing with your words quite liberally. But I do agree, killing people straight out of spawn should be a no.

There's a reason games like these die before they really take off.

I'd love to know which games you're talking about here.

Look, I'm not arguing for some idealistic space utopia. I know combat and subterfuge is part of the game. All I'm arguing for are proper safeguards for new player expirence such as System Secruity.

I agree to an extent, players should be able to construct a ship within a safe zone that can defend itself. Beyond that, beyond the safe zone, killing such players should be disincentivized but should not have systems in place to physically stop it from happening. Making it hard for players who do so to enter safe zones, having a bounty system or some such system should be in place but nothing that will physically stop a player.

 

[Bolshenose]

By that same logic is the money of the new and inexperienced players you plan to terrorize not as valid as yours? I doubt they want their gameplay loop to consist mostly of being preyed upon by you? All I want are proper systems in place to allow for balanced new player expirence.

They have every system in place they need. If your ship is wrecked or stolen, they have the insurance thing. And your ship is a blueprint so if its gone you can easily make another by loading up the print and slapping in the resources. If you constantly get killed outside of safe zone, that is your fault for constantly leaving the safe zone in the same area. Space is 3 dimensional. There are hundreds of different directions you can go to leave the safe zone so if you keep leaving in a direction where you consistently get pirated, thats on you. Either leave a different way or I'll quote the dark souls community and say Git Gud.

 

[Vexus]

@Spartan Shipyards The starter areas will be huge. You will be able to exist in them indefinitely and experience most of what the game offers. As an MMO, the devs will need a huge play area - even 1000km sphere - for each starter mega station, where it does indeed take you ~3hrs of direct flying to get into PvP space. This would incentivize players who want instant-action to join the Empire or Kingdom, which is a faster transportation to a PvP environment, and get sent to the front lines straight away with a faction-provided ship.

The large safe zone also makes it where people can learn the game to their heart's content, get lost, run out of fuel and ask for a pick up, and engage in all that kind of gameplay without running into too much issue. You only really will see combat when you want to, like when you get greedy and embark from an edge-of-the-safezone safe-station into the wild unknown. Then you're taking the risk for profit and know what you're getting into, and won't be complaining when you see combat. The profit incentive in the wild is enough to get players going out there - those who want to take on that risk will enjoy it. If you want to PvP the economy, or just mine for fun, or mine for funneling resources to some other faction, you can do all that in the safe zone. This should bring a lot of condensed action to the mega-stations and a lot of activity and non-combat interaction - just be aware, people might scam you, ask for resources when they're already rich, or do any other manner of social-PvP that exists inside 'safe zones'.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Saying PvPers are bad is not genuine. All the top games have PvP as a very big component of the game. It must be very competitive to keep players engaged, and the FPS and spaceship combat should mean there's something for everyone - if you hate ships, grab a rifle, hitch a ride and hit the enemy faction station on foot. That is going to be a lot of fun and will keep people engaged from otherwise infrequent opportunistic PvP activity outside safe areas. Eventually though, as asteroids get consumed and resources get harder and harder to reach for the profit they bring in, the natural lure of rich materials out in the unknown will pull even the most safe player to considering the risk and reward of going out there. Eventually all players might find themselves making critical decisions about fighting other players, as they will have built up so much value at their home station where they don't want to lose their investment by running out of resources (for example, if you sell ships, and a certain material becomes scarce... as you pay more for the material, people who were otherwise miners might seek out combat or more to secure areas to then mine that now valuable material).

This should be a lot of fun for everyone, and as an MMO, PvP should be known going in, and you should be able to play most of the game without being forced to watch your back every minute. But much of the value and actual player-built interesting things will be out in the universe, away from safety, drawing you out there. It will not be a PvP-fest of people ganking you every minute. You will have months of play if you want before coming close to engaging another player and again, it will be your choice.

 

[Jetthetank]

I would imagine at launch, everything to be quite rampant with pirates and brigands while everyone is finding out where they are on the pecking order, or where they want to be. That would be expected, if you released thousands of people with the mobility of space travel into a new frontier.
But it will evolve over time as people either get fed up enough with all the piracy and disorder, or just seek to join a more orderly faction that they want to join ranks and band together to create orderly zones of space therefore limiting some of the piracy.

I feel thing will evolve based on the playerbase and how the gameplay evolves.

 

[Aquila Osmund]

I would say not to worry about it right, so long as there is space and resources there will be quiet/safe areas for less pvp-oriented people to go.

 

[YakkoForever]

I understand the desire to PvP, to fight other ships, and to see cool explosions. But my question is do you enjoy fighting without a challenge?
By no means I am I saying war needs to be fair, but peace should be fair to some degree. If the game devolves into piracy being the only PvP the game will not have a long life. War's is where PvP belongs. if you want PvP then the warfront is where you should be, not terrorizing some miners. the game should, to some degree, encourage warfront PvP mentality. the message the Dev's should have is if you like fighting then you should be at the warfront.

The Devs are already on top of this by creating an artificial war between the Empire and the kingdom. IMO that should be enough PvP for those who want to PvP. This Mindset of if you want battle go join the war is what needs to be encouraged by in game systems.

The members of this discussion who want to PvP should join the empire or the kingdom.

This is not worlds adrift where there is no warfront.

If your argument against helping protecting miners or merchants from pirates was "people want to PvP" then IDK what you are doing. There should be safety from most piracy because pirates should have to be selective. none of the whole I shoot everything that moves mentality. Pirates should be banned from most stations. Pirates should only attack the juicy targets, if they want to even break even. There should not be a mentaility of "they where driving a weak scooter so I robed them because it was easy" instead it should be more like "we raided their merchant caravan and, while we lost a few ships, we came out victorious". Piracy should not be a random act of violence, but a planned heist.

Obviously, the first day will be chaos and piracy will be rampant but as the warzones form the piracy should die down. (or at least the goal of the devs should be to get this to happen)

 

[Huursa]

I understand the desire to PvP, to fight other ships, and to see cool explosions. But my question is do you enjoy fighting without a challenge?
By no means I am I saying war needs to be fair, but peace should be fair to some degree. If the game devolves into piracy being the only PvP the game will not have a long life. War's is where PvP belongs. if you want PvP then the warfront is where you should be, not terrorizing some miners. the game should, to some degree, encourage warfront PvP mentality. the message the Dev's should have is if you like fighting then you should be at the warfront.

The Devs are already on top of this by creating an artificial war between the Empire and the kingdom. IMO that should be enough PvP for those who want to PvP. This Mindset of if you want battle go join the war is what needs to be encouraged by in game systems.

The members of this discussion who want to PvP should join the empire or the kingdom.

This is not worlds adrift where there is no warfront.

If your argument against helping protecting miners or merchants from pirates was "people want to PvP" then IDK what you are doing. There should be safety from most piracy because pirates should have to be selective. none of the whole I shoot everything that moves mentality. Pirates should be banned from most stations. Pirates should only attack the juicy targets, if they want to even break even. There should not be a mentaility of "they where driving a weak scooter so I robed them because it was easy" instead it should be more like "we raided their merchant caravan and, while we lost a few ships, we came out victorious". Piracy should not be a random act of violence, but a planned heist.

Obviously, the first day will be chaos and piracy will be rampant but as the warzones form the piracy should die down. (or at least the goal of the devs should be to get this to happen)

None of this shit gon happen, when the big bois from atlas,ark come it will be war in space. Theres no such thing as pirate in sandbox games its only war and the diference between being wiped or alive. Better get rdy cuz this gon be gud. Also the devs fightin players will be thick oof when they start gettin slapped around by some random ark tribe and they keep feedin us with free guns and items.

 

[Azelous]

Piracy will happen so long as one of three ideals are present:

1. Piracy is profitable
2. People want to pirate (ex: Sea of Thieves)
3. Factions incite piracy of another factions' players

 

[Huursa]

Piracy will happen so long as one of three ideals are present:

1. Piracy is profitable
2. People want to pirate (ex: Sea of Thieves)
3. Factions incite piracy of another factions' players

There will be no piracy at all, whats gon happen is first month the atlas, ark alliances will slaughter any irrelevant tribe/faction/guild they can find and some might be lucky enough to become their beta or farm slaves. Sure theres gon be some random pirates wanderin around but if u scared from em then gud luck.

 

[Azelous]

There will be no piracy at all, whats gon happen is first month the atlas, ark alliances will slaughter any irrelevant tribe/faction/guild they can find and some might be lucky enough to become their beta or farm slaves. Sure theres gon be some random pirates wanderin around but if u scared from em then gud luck.

Please do not quote me if you're just going to ignore what you quote.

Also, you can't seem to decide whether or not there will be piracy.

 

[Bolshenose]

There will be no piracy at all, whats gon happen is first month the atlas, ark alliances will slaughter any irrelevant tribe/faction/guild they can find and some might be lucky enough to become their beta or farm slaves. Sure theres gon be some random pirates wanderin around but if u scared from em then gud luck.

You seem overly sure of the outcome of the game just because ark and atlas players are going to buy the game. You realize there's a whole lot of other players waiting for starbase that are from other games. You can't just know what'll happen based on whats happened in a completely different game.