Why wouldn't cap ships just mount thousands of torpedoes?

five

Master endo
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
293
#21
Could it not be possible to have enough ammo for more than one shot?
Torpedo pods are like rocket pods, but you only have one big ass rocket, so to reload youd have to climb out of the ship and manually put one new torpedo into each pod.
 

five

Master endo
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
293
#22
I don't understand where you're getting the idea that torpedoes and ships are mutually exclusive. Why would one preclude the other?
Capital ships are stations, that can teleport, they cannot "move"/"fly" during battle
I never said anyone was undermanned. There's no reason why a torpedo bombardment can't be used by a faction who outnumbers their opponent, in order to exacerbate their advantage.
If you outman your opponent, you should resort to strategies that insentivise your superiority, for example by using fighters to overrun the enemy. Now you could have a big ass hangar while still having these tons of torpedo launchers, but that introduces a "blind spot" that is really hard to cover. Like I said the cluster of torpedos isnt effective if it would be in range (which as Lauri was so kind to point out is very likely to not be the case) because those torpedos can be destroyed by gunfire or debri. You probably could deploy fighters simultaneous with some miners. While the fighters stop the "first-wave" of torpedoes, the miners use ore or whatnot to build a blockade. As you pointed out your ship is pointed at the station, but it cant change its orientation.
I don't understand your example. Using torpedoes doesn't preclude any other kind of armament, nor does it introduce any particular weakness into your capital ship.
Yes it doesnt. The malevolence also had AA, because of its size it had even more AA than lets say a Providence-class destroyer of the seperatists. But due to its large armament it was an easy target, just as your torpedo front will be.
 
Joined
Aug 18, 2019
Messages
15
#23
Capital ships are stations, that can teleport, they cannot "move"/"fly" during battle
What does that have to do with anything? None of what I said requires a capital ship to be able to move from where it warps in, nor have I ever mentioned any such thing.

If you outman your opponent, you should resort to strategies that insentivise your superiority, for example by using fighters to overrun the enemy. Now you could have a big ass hangar while still having these tons of torpedo launchers, but that introduces a "blind spot" that is really hard to cover. Like I said the cluster of torpedos isnt effective if it would be in range (which as Lauri was so kind to point out is very likely to not be the case) because those torpedos can be destroyed by gunfire or debri. You probably could deploy fighters simultaneous with some miners. While the fighters stop the "first-wave" of torpedoes, the miners use ore or whatnot to build a blockade. As you pointed out your ship is pointed at the station, but it cant change its orientation.
I already mentioned multiple times, including in the OP, that you can put extra fuel segments on Torpedoes to boost their range. If Capital ships warp in so far out of range that even that's not enough, then I understand why this wouldn't work, but I have yet to hear an answer to that question.

As far as your counter-strategy of flying around in mining ships and spreading debris after the fight has already started, that plays into the attackers' favor and completely justifies the use of torpedoes. It only takes one player to fire the torpedoes, and they can jump into the fight as soon as they press the button. If the defenders are devoting two or more players to flying around in mining ships or manning station guns to target the torpedoes, rather than focusing on the attackers' combat ships, that just pushes the numbers advantage even further in the attackers' favor. In fact, the attackers could just ignore the mining ships entirely. Killing them would just make them respawn in a useful ship faster, so it would be better to just leave them be. If the defenders are going to voluntarily take themselves out of the fight just to deal with the threat of firing torpedoes, then it completely justifies using the torpedoes.


Yes it doesnt. The malevolence also had AA, because of its size it had even more AA than lets say a Providence-class destroyer of the seperatists. But due to its large armament it was an easy target, just as your torpedo front will be.
So you're concerned that the torpedo launchers will need to be spaced out, in order to prevent chain reactions where one torpedo blows others up. Therefore, in order to space them out sufficiently, that that will force you to build your capital ship with a very wide silhouette...and? So what if you have a wide silhouette? Why is that a problem? Are you suggesting that someone could miss a military capital ship?

Are you suggesting that the torpedo launchers will be a large exposed target, and make easy targets for the defenders? For one, that's not true. There's tons of places you can put torpedoes. Anywhere with an unobstructed view of the front of the capital ship is a suitable spot for a torpedo launcher, so you can line the perimeter of the capital ship's silhouette with torpedo launchers. You can also easily keep them very far apart from one another, because a point on the perimeter of the capital ship's silhouette can be anywhere along its length. You can have one torpedo launcher in the front, and one all the way in the back, both facing forward. As long as they have an unobstructed vector forward, they both work fine.

Even supposing that your ship's shape is somehow poorly suited for torpedo placement, or you don't like the aesthetics of the launchers, you can just stick a pylon on the side of the ship, and stick launchers along the length of the pylon. It's not too hard to use yolol to time them so they fire off with the appropriate distance between each torpedo.

But let's assume that the spent torpedo launcher tubes make easy targets for the defenders to attack, and the defenders come up and focus fires on them. THAT IS A GOOD THING. If the defenders are so distracted by useless expended torpedo tubes that they don't bother prioritizing actual important things, like the capital ship's reactors, or its spawn point, or its docking bay, then the torpedo launchers have paid for themselves even more, and that's a sign you should put MORE of them on your capital ship, not less. I've said all along that the purpose of these torpedo launchers is, in the worst-case, to occupy enemy players, thereby giving your side a temporary numbers advantage, while the enemy is distracted by them. This plays directly into that strategy.
 
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Venombrew

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
261
#26
because having a capital ship full of those little fighters is about the only way you will fight as a cap ship. ships will fly out and do their thing and any other ships fly towards that cap ship will take fire from the cap ships defense. that is pretty much cap ship warfare in a nutshell, they wont be put in a range that be consider a death star attack, so your gonna have to rely on fighter ships. the way you the original poster wants these torpedoes to work just isn't happening from the cap ship, the way they described it would be cool, buts its not happening at least right now.

that is what makes it relevant, showing you what the cap ships basic function would be, least right now. you park 1000 meter cap ship with all its guns pointed right at a station, gonna be pretty unfair. since you have to charge these ships for many hours to do basically one warp jump would still give the cap ship advantage of just popping in on a stationary station, specially with 200 cannons pointed at them from out of nowhere.

that is not a fair fight that would be warp nuking on people who have no time to even muster a defense.
 
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Lionard Freezer

Well-known endo
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
97
#27
Havent we seen that explosives have quite a big range and can explode other explosives? wouldnt all of the torpedos explode like dominos if only one is hit? and if you space them out you would have only 10-20% of the front of the hangar used for torpedos. While you could use all of the space and shoot them after each other in 5-10 waves so that they are spaced out enought even then there would be quite few which could then again be shot down.
While you shoot your torpedos you couldnt launch your own ships well, since you dont want to hit your own ships with your torpedos.
Also... im pretty sure the laser designator has a range of 1km, so you would need to get very close to the station if you dont want to shoot blind and have 50% of the torpedos miss.
If i read the comments here right then we say that you could shoot a lot of torpedos but it wouldnt be cost efficient. You could use that money, recources and time better at other fronts.
Edit: I have realised that most of my post has already been said...
You sill could design parts for ships that destroy themselves and create a lot debries that could stop the torpedos. this could be done bevore a fight.
Also correct me if im wrong but i thought you couldnt costumise the capital ships hull. This doesnt make much sense as most things can be customised in SB but i just thought you couldnt.
As such, If you place that many torpedos... Where will the ships go? Or do you just want 5 fighters becouse you didnt have enought space for more?
 
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Joined
Aug 18, 2019
Messages
15
#28
Havent we seen that explosives have quite a big range and can explode other explosives? wouldnt all of the torpedos explode like dominos if only one is hit? and if you space them out you would have only 10-20% of the front of the hangar used for torpedos. While you could use all of the space and shoot them after each other in 5-10 waves so that they are spaced out enought even then there would be quite few which could then again be shot down.
While you shoot your torpedos you couldnt launch your own ships well, since you dont want to hit your own ships with your torpedos.
Also... im pretty sure the laser designator has a range of 1km, so you would need to get very close to the station if you dont want to shoot blind and have 50% of the torpedos miss.
If i read the comments here right then we say that you could shoot a lot of torpedos but it wouldnt be cost efficient. You could use that money, recources and time better at other fronts.
Edit: I have realised that most of my post has already been said...
You sill could design parts for ships that destroy themselves and create a lot debries that could stop the torpedos. this could be done bevore a fight.
Also correct me if im wrong but i thought you couldnt costumise the capital ships hull. This doesnt make much sense as most things can be customised in SB but i just thought you couldnt.
As such, If you place that many torpedos... Where will the ships go? Or do you just want 5 fighters becouse you didnt have enought space for more?
because having a capital ship full of those little fighters is about the only way you will fight as a cap ship. ships will fly out and do their thing and any other ships fly towards that cap ship will take fire from the cap ships defense. that is pretty much cap ship warfare in a nutshell, they wont be put in a range that be consider a death star attack, so your gonna have to rely on fighter ships. the way you the original poster wants these torpedoes to work just isn't happening from the cap ship, the way they described it would be cool, buts its not happening at least right now.

that is what makes it relevant, showing you what the cap ships basic function would be, least right now. you park 1000 meter cap ship with all its guns pointed right at a station, gonna be pretty unfair. since you have to charge these ships for many hours to do basically one warp jump would still give the cap ship advantage of just popping in on a stationary station, specially with 200 cannons pointed at them from out of nowhere.

that is not a fair fight that would be warp nuking on people who have no time to even muster a defense.
I've already addressed each of these points multiple times, some in the OP.

Q: Why not spend the money on something else?
A: You are limited by the number of players on your side, and each player is limited in the number of guns they can bring. Once each player is equipped with a ship, additional upgrades to your combat ships are going to have diminishing returns. Torpedoes, on the other hand, increase your force's effective combat strength with resources alone, and without requiring additional players, which are always in shorter supply than a corporation would prefer.

Q: Why not use fighters?
A: Both sides are going to use fighters. There's nothing saying you can't also use torpedoes.

Q: How will the torpedoes be in range?
A: You can put extra fuel segments on them.

Q: How will you aim the torpedoes?
A: When I asked Lauri in chat, if you could rotate a capital ship, Lauri said that capital ships will warp in facing their target, and cannot be otherwise rotated. That means that you just point all the torpedoes facing forward, and they will all be on target already.

Q: What if the torpedoes blow up and create a chain reaction?
A: You can use yolol to space the torpedo firing times out just enough.

Q: Where will you find room on the hull of the ship for so many torpedoes?
A: You can make extra room for torpedoes by sticking pylons to the ship and filling them with torpedo launchers. You could also widen the pylons into torpedo batteries.

Q: What if the defenders spread chaff?
A: Good. The more players they devote to dealing with the torpedoes, the fewer they have to man fighters and attack your fighters or your capital ship. Your team has gained a numbers advantage from using torpedoes.

Q: What if the defenders shoot down the torpedoes?
A: Good. The more players they devote to dealing with the torpedoes, the fewer they have to man fighters and attack your fighters or your capital ship. Your team has gained a numbers advantage from using torpedoes.

Q: What if the defenders devote some of their players to shooting down the torpedoes with station-mounted turrets?
A: Good. The more players they devote to dealing with the torpedoes, the fewer they have to man fighters and attack your fighters or your capital ship. Your team has gained a numbers advantage from using torpedoes.
 
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Joined
May 31, 2021
Messages
14
#29
I don't think it would bad thing? I think it should be possible and just let the player base come up with ways to counter it with defenses or more torpedoes. Then if it becomes ridiculously effective, I suppose devs can balance it out with nerfs or costs or adjusting the distance of warping in.
 

Jasperagus

Well-known endo
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Messages
62
#30
I'm not sure if you're talking about totally annihilating a station but it would probably be more efficient to keep damage to minimum so the station is still usable later or so it costs less to repair. Shooting the station more then ships and endos feels like a bad idea but it would be sick having explosions everywhere. Like you said you could also just use torpedoes to keep the defender's hands full.
@Strill
 

shado20

Well-known endo
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
52
#31
YES lets mount thousands of torps on a ship and annihilate the stations. this allows big factions the ability to take a station away smaller factions and not half to occupies it. they just roll in and destroy the station with out ever leaving the comfort of there ships defense's and destroy a station. this would kill the game in no time!
 

Wiggs

Endokid
Joined
Jun 3, 2021
Messages
2
#32
I asked Lauri in discord what is there to stop a capital ship from mounting a thousand torpedoes, and firing them off the moment the fight begins to obliterate the enemy station. Lauri said that the capital ship would be out of range, but after thinking it through I don't understand why that would be. A capital ship is going to warp in facing its target, so all of its torpedoes will be aimed and ready. You just need to make sure they have enough fuel segments to reach their target, and then all they have to do is fly straight.

Is there something else I'm missing?
I would hope at some point more weapon systems would come online as in anti missile/torp weapons, anti fighter etc. Those would defend against said torps. The should be cheaper and easier to obtain so even the little guy would have some defenses. But I am sure we will see balancing and stuff change. I am new to this so still catching up so forgive me if this already exists.
 

cranky corvid

Well-known endo
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
63
#34
I think the idea is that the torps will be able to reach their target so long as they stay within render range of somebody, not necessarily the firing capital ship. I am not familiar with the details of their hosting mechanics, though - I think projectile weapons have their range hardcapped to render range at the moment though they were originally intended to reach longer distances, not sure what the case is with ordnance.
 
Joined
May 20, 2020
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3
#35
Can't you also program torpedoes to turn, so you can have them launch and execute one turn to face forward?

Then all the torpedoes don't have to be on the front, and they barely need guidance as stations are pretty hard to miss.
 
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
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#36
If the Station owner know that an attack is coming. Why should they do not the same? I mean you can position also a bunch of boxships with torpedo launchers above the station and wait for them or is the announcement of the attack something between 24-72h so that you dont know exactly when the battle will begin?

Also if the Power of an Torpedo is so great what happens if you shoot at least one with an ship. Will the other then not also explode in cloud of wasted money? In my opinion this tactic has a lot of holes.
 
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