Gunships
- Thread starter LauriFB
- Start date
i felt the same way before the nerf. I knew tripods would be op. but, now they nerfed it, and i have yet to hear about their effectiveness. I do know alot of the community complains about the large ships not being able to do much vs smaller ones. But, people also havent been using heavy armor to really bring out the tank attribute to what a large ship should be. like, plate in ominum, charodium, soon we will have daltium, and others. make it real heavy with armor, and should do well with these mouse controlled turrets or some kind of turret set up where the gunner can sit behind some armor while stil able to see
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2019
- Messages
- 576
Ok, so what we have now:
1) Tripod guns are not physicalized;
2) Tripods dont move CoM while aiming despite weighting 20 tons;
3) Tripods move instantly despite weighting 20 tons;
4) Tripods weight 40 tons despite being very small (for balance reasons);
We have 4 occurrences of "hacking around core features of the game" you said you want to avoid.
Just going to leave it here...
1) Tripod guns are not physicalized;
2) Tripods dont move CoM while aiming despite weighting 20 tons;
3) Tripods move instantly despite weighting 20 tons;
4) Tripods weight 40 tons despite being very small (for balance reasons);
We have 4 occurrences of "hacking around core features of the game" you said you want to avoid.
Just going to leave it here...
Handguns (and tripods) also largely ignore collisions and do only rudimentary checks to prevent firing through things, thus allowing them to operate without physics. The larger the gun is, the harder it's just to ignore physics.
I can ask for a concept of a gun which could be possible, but I can't make any promises just yet.
I can ask for a concept of a gun which could be possible, but I can't make any promises just yet.
out of curiosity, what are the main reasons the old turrets weren't possible? To my understanding it would only be possible if they were made cheaty / removing features from them. Because the amount of options we get from old turrets to me vastly improves the game, so I would be down for "cheaty" turrets, if they at least allow for more / better multi-crew ship options.
However I can also see more content / multicrew options using the old turret concept;
- Radiation detection, person sits in a turret cradle with a antenna like device scanning in certain directions to detect any radiation signal.
- Ore Detector, same concept as above however for asteroids.
- Slaved turrets, or custimizable turrets aren't possible with current concept of tri-pods (see image below as an example)
However I can also see more content / multicrew options using the old turret concept;
- Radiation detection, person sits in a turret cradle with a antenna like device scanning in certain directions to detect any radiation signal.
- Ore Detector, same concept as above however for asteroids.
- Slaved turrets, or custimizable turrets aren't possible with current concept of tri-pods (see image below as an example)
Attachments
So as far as I understand, the problems with old turrets are:
- low speed and torque;
- operator dosn't host the turret (solved in dev turrets);
- no mouse controls (partially solved);
- low durability along with big size;
Why those problems exist:
- turrets check for collisions;
- turrets affect ship movement;
Possible solutions:
- create an exclusion zone on turret placement (like you did with tripods) - so turret doesn't collide with objects so easily;
- apply turret mass to the hardpoint it's attached to;
- increase turret torque and velocity;
- change turret material to something more robust;
- (???);
- low speed and torque;
- operator dosn't host the turret (solved in dev turrets);
- no mouse controls (partially solved);
- low durability along with big size;
Why those problems exist:
- turrets check for collisions;
- turrets affect ship movement;
Possible solutions:
- create an exclusion zone on turret placement (like you did with tripods) - so turret doesn't collide with objects so easily;
- apply turret mass to the hardpoint it's attached to;
- increase turret torque and velocity;
- change turret material to something more robust;
- (???);
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2021
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- 17
I think one part of solution that can work --remake of whole turret basis to MUCH more compact disign with like single/double gun and, and as Waselon proposed -- limited angles. So it will be smaller target, easier to armor/fit on current generation of ship sizes (that on average not so big for meta reasons).
Attachments
You can stack turntables to increase torque. But it's high level heresy, so not really available to most of playerbase.
Would be nice to have easily stackable turret rings with power socket. And across the board torque increase.
Gunners not hosting turrets could be mostly ignored if we have an input method that gives instant feedback.
Something as simple as yolol knowing where the gunner is looking would be enough to mitigate input lag and make low torque a bit less of a problem. Because then you wouldn't have to guess how long you need to press the key to move the turret X degree. Just point at desired location and guns will sooner or later point at it.
Low durability is directly related to low toque. Otherwise you could armour the turret as you like.
Big size is only the case if you build the turret to be big. Stock cradles are big, but you can build your own custom cradle.
Turret checking for collision is a must, if players are allowed to build them free-form. Otherwise you'll end up with multiple layers of clipped through components (like FTD at some point).
Exclusion zone is an alternative... but when do you want to apply it? If at the ship creation stage, people will use hinges to clip cover into turrets. If as invisible hit box that's there all the time, then you need to make them dynamically changing sizes based on turret composition.
Turret affecting ship movement is just engineering challenge, not a problem. Build balanced turrets, attach them to heavy enough ships. Only change from devs here is fixing collision clang forces and maybe sub-grid CoM indicator.
BTW IMO even current tripods should apply their mass where they are placed, not at CoM. It makes sense for endos to apply the mass to CoM, because they are moving all the time. But tripod is stationary, so there are no excuses for it not to shift CoM.
Exclusive materials and hacking physics is not the way to go.
Would be nice to have easily stackable turret rings with power socket. And across the board torque increase.
Gunners not hosting turrets could be mostly ignored if we have an input method that gives instant feedback.
Something as simple as yolol knowing where the gunner is looking would be enough to mitigate input lag and make low torque a bit less of a problem. Because then you wouldn't have to guess how long you need to press the key to move the turret X degree. Just point at desired location and guns will sooner or later point at it.
Low durability is directly related to low toque. Otherwise you could armour the turret as you like.
Big size is only the case if you build the turret to be big. Stock cradles are big, but you can build your own custom cradle.
Turret checking for collision is a must, if players are allowed to build them free-form. Otherwise you'll end up with multiple layers of clipped through components (like FTD at some point).
Exclusion zone is an alternative... but when do you want to apply it? If at the ship creation stage, people will use hinges to clip cover into turrets. If as invisible hit box that's there all the time, then you need to make them dynamically changing sizes based on turret composition.
Turret affecting ship movement is just engineering challenge, not a problem. Build balanced turrets, attach them to heavy enough ships. Only change from devs here is fixing collision clang forces and maybe sub-grid CoM indicator.
BTW IMO even current tripods should apply their mass where they are placed, not at CoM. It makes sense for endos to apply the mass to CoM, because they are moving all the time. But tripod is stationary, so there are no excuses for it not to shift CoM.
Exclusive materials and hacking physics is not the way to go.