Gunships

Joined
Aug 10, 2021
Messages
3
#83
Give turrets a maximum weight to reduce their impact?

Personally I would love to see ship like broadside combat from large ships like in rebel galaxy
 

J.D.

Veteran endo
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
199
#84
check this out Lauri. lol this would make gunships better. this guy figured out how to control turrets with his mouse.
 

Mur

Learned-to-turn-off-magboots endo
Joined
Feb 23, 2021
Messages
45
#85
I have stated this in other places but I believe that tripods don't have a place on ships and should only be usable on station / capital ships.
Tripods have better tracking and usability and such when already multi-crew ships already have an advantage.
 

J.D.

Veteran endo
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
199
#86
I have stated this in other places but I believe that tripods don't have a place on ships and should only be usable on station / capital ships.
Tripods have better tracking and usability and such when already multi-crew ships already have an advantage.
i felt the same way before the nerf. I knew tripods would be op. but, now they nerfed it, and i have yet to hear about their effectiveness. I do know alot of the community complains about the large ships not being able to do much vs smaller ones. But, people also havent been using heavy armor to really bring out the tank attribute to what a large ship should be. like, plate in ominum, charodium, soon we will have daltium, and others. make it real heavy with armor, and should do well with these mouse controlled turrets or some kind of turret set up where the gunner can sit behind some armor while stil able to see
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
576
#87
Resource bridges are an inelegant solution. They should have a socket to plug them in. Now we get ugly glowing strings all over the place.

Honestly, they should scrap capital ships entirely. I don't understand why you guys are excited for capital ships when the stations don't even work.
 
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
10
#88
Ok, so what we have now:

1) Tripod guns are not physicalized;
2) Tripods dont move CoM while aiming despite weighting 20 tons;
3) Tripods move instantly despite weighting 20 tons;
4) Tripods weight 40 tons despite being very small (for balance reasons);

We have 4 occurrences of "hacking around core features of the game" you said you want to avoid.



Just going to leave it here...
 

LauriFB

Administrator
Moderator
Frozenbyte
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
211
#90
Handguns (and tripods) also largely ignore collisions and do only rudimentary checks to prevent firing through things, thus allowing them to operate without physics. The larger the gun is, the harder it's just to ignore physics.

I can ask for a concept of a gun which could be possible, but I can't make any promises just yet.
 

Quevin

Active endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
30
#91
Handguns (and tripods) also largely ignore collisions and do only rudimentary checks to prevent firing through things, thus allowing them to operate without physics. The larger the gun is, the harder it's just to ignore physics.

I can ask for a concept of a gun which could be possible, but I can't make any promises just yet.
out of curiosity, what are the main reasons the old turrets weren't possible? To my understanding it would only be possible if they were made cheaty / removing features from them. Because the amount of options we get from old turrets to me vastly improves the game, so I would be down for "cheaty" turrets, if they at least allow for more / better multi-crew ship options.

However I can also see more content / multicrew options using the old turret concept;
- Radiation detection, person sits in a turret cradle with a antenna like device scanning in certain directions to detect any radiation signal.
- Ore Detector, same concept as above however for asteroids.
- Slaved turrets, or custimizable turrets aren't possible with current concept of tri-pods (see image below as an example)
 

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LauriFB

Administrator
Moderator
Frozenbyte
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
211
#92
out of curiosity, what are the main reasons the old turrets weren't possible? To my understanding it would only be possible if they were made cheaty / removing features from them. Because the amount of options we get from old turrets to me vastly improves the game, so I would be down for "cheaty" turrets, if they at least allow for more / better multi-crew ship options.

However I can also see more content / multicrew options using the old turret concept;
- Radiation detection, person sits in a turret cradle with a antenna like device scanning in certain directions to detect any radiation signal.
- Ore Detector, same concept as above however for asteroids.
- Slaved turrets, or custimizable turrets aren't possible with current concept of tri-pods (see image below as an example)
It lacks proper physics, so for example the barrel would easily clip through a wall or floor.

The possibilities are there and now that tripods didn't fill the gap quite right the need has re-surfaced. We'll look into it.
 

TGess

Well-known endo
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
52
#93
It lacks proper physics, so for example the barrel would easily clip through a wall or floor.

The possibilities are there and now that tripods didn't fill the gap quite right the need has re-surfaced. We'll look into it.
Thanks!
 
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
10
#94
So as far as I understand, the problems with old turrets are:
- low speed and torque;
- operator dosn't host the turret (solved in dev turrets);
- no mouse controls (partially solved);
- low durability along with big size;

Why those problems exist:
- turrets check for collisions;
- turrets affect ship movement;

Possible solutions:
- create an exclusion zone on turret placement (like you did with tripods) - so turret doesn't collide with objects so easily;
- apply turret mass to the hardpoint it's attached to;
- increase turret torque and velocity;
- change turret material to something more robust;
- (???);
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
17
#95
So as far as I understand, the problems with old turrets are:
- (???);
I think one part of solution that can work --remake of whole turret basis to MUCH more compact disign with like single/double gun and, and as Waselon proposed -- limited angles. So it will be smaller target, easier to armor/fit on current generation of ship sizes (that on average not so big for meta reasons).
 

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Womble

Veteran endo
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
177
#97
We have one pretty good idea how to solve this and we'll beging working on it Monday. Might take a while to get it fully completed, but I'm positive the concept has potential.
Good to hear. But now We, The Curious, want to Know. Pretty Please? :)

There might even be useful input, if you share the concept outline... It's what we're here for, after all, o master of our future alternate pseudoreality.
 

LauriFB

Administrator
Moderator
Frozenbyte
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
211
#98
Good to hear. But now We, The Curious, want to Know. Pretty Please? :)

There might even be useful input, if you share the concept outline... It's what we're here for, after all, o master of our future alternate pseudoreality.
I'll post the concept once we have it :D
 

CalenLoki

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
741
So as far as I understand, the problems with old turrets are:
- low speed and torque;
- operator dosn't host the turret (solved in dev turrets);
- no mouse controls (partially solved);
- low durability along with big size;

Why those problems exist:
- turrets check for collisions;
- turrets affect ship movement;

Possible solutions:
- create an exclusion zone on turret placement (like you did with tripods) - so turret doesn't collide with objects so easily;
- apply turret mass to the hardpoint it's attached to;
- increase turret torque and velocity;
- change turret material to something more robust;
- (???);
You can stack turntables to increase torque. But it's high level heresy, so not really available to most of playerbase.
Would be nice to have easily stackable turret rings with power socket. And across the board torque increase.

Gunners not hosting turrets could be mostly ignored if we have an input method that gives instant feedback.
Something as simple as yolol knowing where the gunner is looking would be enough to mitigate input lag and make low torque a bit less of a problem. Because then you wouldn't have to guess how long you need to press the key to move the turret X degree. Just point at desired location and guns will sooner or later point at it.

Low durability is directly related to low toque. Otherwise you could armour the turret as you like.
Big size is only the case if you build the turret to be big. Stock cradles are big, but you can build your own custom cradle.

Turret checking for collision is a must, if players are allowed to build them free-form. Otherwise you'll end up with multiple layers of clipped through components (like FTD at some point).
Exclusion zone is an alternative... but when do you want to apply it? If at the ship creation stage, people will use hinges to clip cover into turrets. If as invisible hit box that's there all the time, then you need to make them dynamically changing sizes based on turret composition.

Turret affecting ship movement is just engineering challenge, not a problem. Build balanced turrets, attach them to heavy enough ships. Only change from devs here is fixing collision clang forces and maybe sub-grid CoM indicator.

BTW IMO even current tripods should apply their mass where they are placed, not at CoM. It makes sense for endos to apply the mass to CoM, because they are moving all the time. But tripod is stationary, so there are no excuses for it not to shift CoM.

Exclusive materials and hacking physics is not the way to go.
 
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