Station rules of engagement

[Commissar Awesome]

The biggest question I have about Starbase concerns the rules of engagement for player built stations. Will there be any sort of protection to keep them from getting blown up at the odd hours of the night?
Some games require a station seige to be scheduled while some games pretty much require a huge number of faction members to able to defend it at all hours, which can be tougher for some people who can't justify getting up at 3am to play a video game.
If a player built station is destroyed will everything housed within be lost? Will insurance cover stations and things be stored in stations?
Will the incentives to build player stations be worth it compared to the risks? Or will everyone just rent space at safe zone megastations? (since they don't want to lose all their stuff in one attack.)

 

[Kenetor]

Yes there will safe zones for player stations when they are complete, they dont know how they work it in terms of gameplay but it is on the cards

Kenetor

 

[SNPtsg]

NexuniToday at 3:12 PM
you plan player made stations as far as i know. have you tought of a system that will prevent offline raids or is that up to when you actually develop player stations?

LauriFBToday at 3:14 PM
the dynamic safe zone system is what protects from offline raids once your station is well established (ie. no-one is contesting the ownership of the area with armed ships and the station is large enough), safe zone options come in play safe zones won't wear out immediately but slowly when attack comes think about flag capturing mechanic in games like battlefield

NexuniToday at 3:16 PM
ah, nice! can you tell me about how long that will take? a few hours? a day?

LauriFBToday at 3:16 PM
the safe zone has various options and levels (owner can choose what it protects and how long), and more options and more time comes available when the station is larger and more established I'd imagine largest stations can get days, even up to a week of protection once they are large and old enough

NexuniToday at 3:17 PM
and i guess to count as "armed ships" they'd need to be at war with you? as most mining ships will probably have at least some weapons

LauriFBToday at 3:17 PM
yes, they have to be declared to be against you so their presence would count towards lowering the protection they can also be for you, and then their presence counts towards the safe zone the idea is that any ship who has military status enabled can contribute for or against (or be neutral) safe zones, but also all military ships won't have any protection ever, not even within own faction safe zones

NexuniToday at 3:19 PM
that sounds like a really nice system to be honest. you will have to be active and protect your station at the start so people can stop you, but if you are already established you'd be pretty safe

LauriFBToday at 3:19 PM
you can also ask some big faction nearby to provide the protection, at least the initial protection maybe for a small fee they will offer protection services.

NexuniToday at 3:21 PM
totally not obvious faction promotion

LauriFBToday at 3:22 PM
well, I suppose the initial factions will offer some stability at start, but once large player factions kick in they might be more focused on fighting each other ...

 

[Commissar Awesome]

Thanks for the info, sounds interesting

 

[Morrgard]

NexuniToday at 3:12 PM
you plan player made stations as far as i know. have you tought of a system that will prevent offline raids or is that up to when you actually develop player stations?

LauriFBToday at 3:14 PM
the dynamic safe zone system is what protects from offline raids once your station is well established (ie. no-one is contesting the ownership of the area with armed ships and the station is large enough), safe zone options come in play safe zones won't wear out immediately but slowly when attack comes think about flag capturing mechanic in games like battlefield

NexuniToday at 3:16 PM
ah, nice! can you tell me about how long that will take? a few hours? a day?

LauriFBToday at 3:16 PM
the safe zone has various options and levels (owner can choose what it protects and how long), and more options and more time comes available when the station is larger and more established I'd imagine largest stations can get days, even up to a week of protection once they are large and old enough

NexuniToday at 3:17 PM
and i guess to count as "armed ships" they'd need to be at war with you? as most mining ships will probably have at least some weapons

LauriFBToday at 3:17 PM
yes, they have to be declared to be against you so their presence would count towards lowering the protection they can also be for you, and then their presence counts towards the safe zone the idea is that any ship who has military status enabled can contribute for or against (or be neutral) safe zones, but also all military ships won't have any protection ever, not even within own faction safe zones

NexuniToday at 3:19 PM
that sounds like a really nice system to be honest. you will have to be active and protect your station at the start so people can stop you, but if you are already established you'd be pretty safe

LauriFBToday at 3:19 PM
you can also ask some big faction nearby to provide the protection, at least the initial protection maybe for a small fee they will offer protection services.

NexuniToday at 3:21 PM
totally not obvious faction promotion

LauriFBToday at 3:22 PM
well, I suppose the initial factions will offer some stability at start, but once large player factions kick in they might be more focused on fighting each other ...

Glad you sent this, it's a good read and very informative. Thank you

 

[Kenetor]

NexuniToday at 3:12 PM
you plan player made stations as far as i know. have you tought of a system that will prevent offline raids or is that up to when you actually develop player stations?

LauriFBToday at 3:14 PM
the dynamic safe zone system is what protects from offline raids once your station is well established (ie. no-one is contesting the ownership of the area with armed ships and the station is large enough), safe zone options come in play safe zones won't wear out immediately but slowly when attack comes think about flag capturing mechanic in games like battlefield

NexuniToday at 3:16 PM
ah, nice! can you tell me about how long that will take? a few hours? a day?

LauriFBToday at 3:16 PM
the safe zone has various options and levels (owner can choose what it protects and how long), and more options and more time comes available when the station is larger and more established I'd imagine largest stations can get days, even up to a week of protection once they are large and old enough

NexuniToday at 3:17 PM
and i guess to count as "armed ships" they'd need to be at war with you? as most mining ships will probably have at least some weapons

LauriFBToday at 3:17 PM
yes, they have to be declared to be against you so their presence would count towards lowering the protection they can also be for you, and then their presence counts towards the safe zone the idea is that any ship who has military status enabled can contribute for or against (or be neutral) safe zones, but also all military ships won't have any protection ever, not even within own faction safe zones

NexuniToday at 3:19 PM
that sounds like a really nice system to be honest. you will have to be active and protect your station at the start so people can stop you, but if you are already established you'd be pretty safe

LauriFBToday at 3:19 PM
you can also ask some big faction nearby to provide the protection, at least the initial protection maybe for a small fee they will offer protection services.

NexuniToday at 3:21 PM
totally not obvious faction promotion

LauriFBToday at 3:22 PM
well, I suppose the initial factions will offer some stability at start, but once large player factions kick in they might be more focused on fighting each other ...

This is some great information, I woulsof never found this on discord if i wasnt online at the time!

 

[Vexus]

I think safe zones are important, and player stations need such a thing, however if large groups can manipulate stations to become untouchable, where they can amass and secure unlimited resources and never fear attack, it eliminates the desire for smaller groups to even try fighting them, where no matter your attack it doesn't do anything.

Rust kind of does this well, where even large groups are prone to being attacked by smaller groups and because the potential target base is full of a large group's loot, there's always an incentive and always conflict. Plus the larger groups are always running around with gear so there's reason to pull off crazy attacks to get ahead.

One thing Atlas did semi-well was ships were almost always vulnerable, so the biggest groups always had ample targets and if you managed to sink a ship you knew it really cost something. In addition EVE had the same thing, where ships were quite valuable so losing them was sometimes more painful than losing a station.

I feel safety is a difficult balance in these situations. I'm not certain of a best answer, but unlimited safety seems unreasonable (in that, you are completely without risk for a week for example). Safety by mass comes to me just now as a valid idea - I just have so much stuff in my station you're unlikely to ever find anything and your expending of resources will probably not pay off. So you'll have to be more critical in your attack versus just destroying everything. This would be possible if building was very easy but the cost to fire weapons and cut into things was limited enough where you might hit one of 300 separate lots, and maybe don't find anything.

Not sure the best answer but as soon as a large group achieves pure safety from an arbitrary ruleset outside of starter safe zones we enter into a game of rules favoring the group and not action, stagnating conflict (the why even try mentality).

 

[Morrgard]

I think safe zones are important, and player stations need such a thing, however if large groups can manipulate stations to become untouchable, where they can amass and secure unlimited resources and never fear attack, it eliminates the desire for smaller groups to even try fighting them, where no matter your attack it doesn't do anything.

Rust kind of does this well, where even large groups are prone to being attacked by smaller groups and because the potential target base is full of a large group's loot, there's always an incentive and always conflict. Plus the larger groups are always running around with gear so there's reason to pull off crazy attacks to get ahead.

One thing Atlas did semi-well was ships were almost always vulnerable, so the biggest groups always had ample targets and if you managed to sink a ship you knew it really cost something. In addition EVE had the same thing, where ships were quite valuable so losing them was sometimes more painful than losing a station.

I feel safety is a difficult balance in these situations. I'm not certain of a best answer, but unlimited safety seems unreasonable (in that, you are completely without risk for a week for example). Safety by mass comes to me just now as a valid idea - I just have so much stuff in my station you're unlikely to ever find anything and your expending of resources will probably not pay off. So you'll have to be more critical in your attack versus just destroying everything. This would be possible if building was very easy but the cost to fire weapons and cut into things was limited enough where you might hit one of 300 separate lots, and maybe don't find anything.

Not sure the best answer but as soon as a large group achieves pure safety from an arbitrary ruleset outside of starter safe zones we enter into a game of rules favoring the group and not action, stagnating conflict (the why even try mentality).

I mean, Lauri mentioned it would be like capture the flag scenario, they won't be untouchable.

LauriFBToday at 3:14 PM
the dynamic safe zone system is what protects from offline raids once your station is well established (ie. no-one is contesting the ownership of the area with armed ships and the station is large enough), safe zone options come in play safe zones won't wear out immediately but slowly when attack comes think about flag capturing mechanic in games like battlefield

 

[Kenetor]

I mean, Lauri mentioned it would be like capture the flag scenario, they won't be untouchable.

I love me a good ol' bit of CTF!

 

[Morrgard]

I love me a good ol' bit of CTF!

Sorry to say you probably will miss the flag, although that would be really cool to have.. a faction flag that you place in the center of stations which is captured to open up the safe zone making it vulnerable to attack

 

[DrunkRussianBear]

NexuniToday at 3:12 PM
you plan player made stations as far as i know. have you tought of a system that will prevent offline raids or is that up to when you actually develop player stations?

LauriFBToday at 3:14 PM
the dynamic safe zone system is what protects from offline raids once your station is well established (ie. no-one is contesting the ownership of the area with armed ships and the station is large enough), safe zone options come in play safe zones won't wear out immediately but slowly when attack comes think about flag capturing mechanic in games like battlefield

NexuniToday at 3:16 PM
ah, nice! can you tell me about how long that will take? a few hours? a day?

LauriFBToday at 3:16 PM
the safe zone has various options and levels (owner can choose what it protects and how long), and more options and more time comes available when the station is larger and more established I'd imagine largest stations can get days, even up to a week of protection once they are large and old enough

NexuniToday at 3:17 PM
and i guess to count as "armed ships" they'd need to be at war with you? as most mining ships will probably have at least some weapons

LauriFBToday at 3:17 PM
yes, they have to be declared to be against you so their presence would count towards lowering the protection they can also be for you, and then their presence counts towards the safe zone the idea is that any ship who has military status enabled can contribute for or against (or be neutral) safe zones, but also all military ships won't have any protection ever, not even within own faction safe zones

NexuniToday at 3:19 PM
that sounds like a really nice system to be honest. you will have to be active and protect your station at the start so people can stop you, but if you are already established you'd be pretty safe

LauriFBToday at 3:19 PM
you can also ask some big faction nearby to provide the protection, at least the initial protection maybe for a small fee they will offer protection services.

NexuniToday at 3:21 PM
totally not obvious faction promotion

LauriFBToday at 3:22 PM
well, I suppose the initial factions will offer some stability at start, but once large player factions kick in they might be more focused on fighting each other ...

Great info!

 

[Kenetor]

Sorry to say you probably will miss the flag, although that would be really cool to have.. a faction flag that you place in the center of stations which is captured to open up the safe zone making it vulnerable to attack

Doesnt have to be a flag per se, but maybe a point you have to hold to for a certain time to take control of the station would be cool!

 

[LauriFB]

The safe zone capturing/contesting is most likely a combination of presence of military ships and maybe also a command center at the station.

As military ships can always be attacked the initial conflict will be solved with ships, but once ships are depleted there's most likely still armed robots around the station. Instead of looking every corner of a 20 km^2 station the defenders must keep the command station and attackers capture that. The command post most likely is not up for capturing before the general safe zone status has lowered enough, and that is achieved with military presence.

Capturing a station doesn't kill the defenders though, just prevents them spawning back, so there might still be armed resistance left to be mopped out.

In general capturing a station should take more like days than hours, so the defenders have time to gather the defenses and that also ensures a fight will most likely take place.

 

[DrunkRussianBear]

The safe zone capturing/contesting is most likely a combination of presence of military ships and maybe also a command center at the station.

As military ships can always be attacked the initial conflict will be solved with ships, but once ships are depleted there's most likely still armed robots around the station. Instead of looking every corner of a 20 km^2 station the defenders must keep the command station and attackers capture that. The command post most likely is not up for capturing before the general safe zone status has lowered enough, and that is achieved with military presence.

Capturing a station doesn't kill the defenders though, just prevents them spawning back, so there might still be armed resistance left to be mopped out.

In general capturing a station should take more like days than hours, so the defenders have time to gather the defenses and that also ensures a fight will most likely take place.

That sounds absolutely amazing! I'd love to see all the resistance movements to occupation and such could be amazingly fun gameplay.

 

[Morrgard]

The safe zone capturing/contesting is most likely a combination of presence of military ships and maybe also a command center at the station.

As military ships can always be attacked the initial conflict will be solved with ships, but once ships are depleted there's most likely still armed robots around the station. Instead of looking every corner of a 20 km^2 station the defenders must keep the command station and attackers capture that. The command post most likely is not up for capturing before the general safe zone status has lowered enough, and that is achieved with military presence.

Capturing a station doesn't kill the defenders though, just prevents them spawning back, so there might still be armed resistance left to be mopped out.

In general capturing a station should take more like days than hours, so the defenders have time to gather the defenses and that also ensures a fight will most likely take place.

I really like the sound of that. Having a battle go on for such a long time unlike the fast-paced battles giving it a proper sense of being besieged!
And it's a great way to ensure that the element of FPS in the game is also utilized a lot more, by adding a place where there's a high chance of encountering defenders in a station you are boarding. Command deck like a capture room is a fantastic idea, brings a holding point for the defenders which is great, so it's not just a station skirmish and there's an objective to the attack

 

[DrunkRussianBear]

I really like the sound of that. Having a battle go on for such a long time unlike the fast-paced battles giving it a proper sense of being besieged!
And it's a great way to ensure that the element of FPS in the game is also utilized a lot more, by adding a place where there's a high chance of encountering defenders in a station you are boarding. Command deck like a capture room is a fantastic idea, brings a holding point for the defenders which is great, so it's not just a station skirmish and there's an objective to the attack

Only issue is getting a playerbase large enough to sustain these active defenses in stations otherwise we'll end up with a rust offline raiding situation.

 

[Strite]

In general capturing a station should take more like days than hours, so the defenders have time to gather the defenses and that also ensures a fight will most likely take place.

Whilst I quite like the sound of the system as a whole and I understand the need for defenders to be given enough time to respond to an attack, my concern with station raids taking days is this point by Vexus:

I think safe zones are important, and player stations need such a thing, however if large groups can manipulate stations to become untouchable, where they can amass and secure unlimited resources and never fear attack, it eliminates the desire for smaller groups to even try fighting them, where no matter your attack it doesn't do anything.

Basically, a large force is still going to be untouchable by a smaller force which will most likely rely on hit and run tactics. Numbers are always going to provide a natural advantage anyway, that's unavoidable but it's important not to ignore balancing gameplay for smaller groups in favour of zergs IMO.

 

[DrunkRussianBear]

Whilst I quite like the sound of the system as a whole and I understand the need for defenders to be given enough time to respond to an attack, my concern with station raids taking days is this point by Vexus:



Basically, a large force is still going to be untouchable by a smaller force which will most likely rely on hit and run tactics. Numbers are always going to provide a natural advantage anyway, that's unavoidable but it's important not to ignore balancing gameplay for smaller groups in favour of zergs IMO.

I feel like with the capture point system that the devs have stated will always favour the larger forces who will have the manpower needed to put on a multi day siege. Hit and run tactics on a station may disrupt daily operations temporarily but would never be enough to secure it entirely.

 

[Morrgard]

Only issue is getting a playerbase large enough to sustain these active defenses in stations otherwise we'll end up with a rust offline raiding situation.

I did not really ever play rust, but I see your point. I mean it's just a way to encourage larger group play if anything, and if not people would still have some day(s) to defend their station anyway so it should be fine

 

[DrunkRussianBear]

I did not really ever play rust, but I see your point. I mean it's just a way to encourage larger group play if anything, and if not people would still have some day(s) to defend their station anyway so it should be fine

I'd imagine there will be that small crowd who hates large groups and want small groups to have just as much power as the large groups in a sandbox mmo.
I say that because I've noticed a few around, they just aren't very vocal about it yet.