Why Exponential growth and mining lasers could be very bad

Quinc

Well-known endo
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
56
#1
Who doesn't want infinite stuff? Well you don't. The nature of this game is that resources are limited. Replacing a ship is meant to take time and effort, almost as much as building the first one. Certainly there are games where assembling your design is easy, but there is every indication that isn't the intent for Starbase. Losing a ship matters because it took time and effort to get that ship in the first place. This affects everything else in the game.

So of course they introduced the mining laser, a ship mounted device that coverts asteroid voxels into ore items, which are then put into your inventory by an ore collector. This is the same function as the blunt end of the pick axe and the mining back pack, but now with a ship mounted version. A player can only hold and swing one pick axe at a time, while ships and stations allow for any number of various devices. So now imagine you could build a ship with 30 mining lasers. Do 30 mining lasers mine 30 times faster? You would need more than the mining lasers themselves, but if you double everything on your ship you would double your mining rate. If the rate you gather resources is directly proportional to the resources you invested in your mining ship you would get exponential growth of mining ship size and that player's mining rate which only stops with ship size limits. Depending on what exactly those hard upper limits are like in the future, a maxed out mining ship could gather hundreds of times what a swinging pick axe could.

With exponential growth the changes to the economy would not be noticeable for a time. People would rely on starting ships, grinding at "jobs," and selling to NPCs for a time. It would be a slow grind at first. When it finally took off noticeable changes would come relatively rapidly. Players would need to trade in their mining ship for something better regularly. There would be a period where things match what developers imagined, but it would be very brief Once you have a max-sized mining ship growth would be linear. Cargo and combat ships would also max out soon, and this linear growth would result in max size ships becoming steadily cheaper and more expendable. Combined with the fact that everyone is competing with everyone there would be some problems.

Firstly, older players would have an immense advantage over newer players. Starbase throws every player into the same pot, everyone is competing with each other on some level, whether that is their contribution to the economy or actual combat. A newer player will be relatively inconsequential and defenseless next to the vets. Exponential progression might motivate them to take the next step, but it also means someone who has twice as much as you will continue to have twice as much as long you both progress at the same rate. If reaching the end game takes extremely long, and being a non-end-game player means you have comparitively nothing, the frustration from the grind could outweigh the positives. Of course they could skip ahead by joining an established faction, but then the veterans that lead not only outperform the newbies but also get to boss them around. It promotes a one sided relationship and that should never be necessary.

Secondly, with huge yet cheap ships, balance is a problem, the meta gets weird, and a handful of designs will dominate. The arbritrary part limit and the number of crew becomes the limiting factor, and so designs have to revolve around that limitation. There is little benefit to getting a cheaper ship, which means almost everything will be max-size, (unless the ship is a scout, light courier, or needs to be particularly expendable). Even having multi-crew ships will be pointless when you can afford multiple single crew ships. Yes 1 on 1 the multi-crew ship is better, but when everything is the same size 1 ship per person means more power. Obviously there is less variety when every ships is max-size and single pilot.
When everything has exactly 24 weapons people will almost always use the weapon that needs fewer reloads. Ships could be super slow simply because they don't have sufficient surface area for all of the engines. A similar issue with weapons could mean big ships have much more armor than firepower, resulting in slow tanky fights. If building a ship is vastly more effort than mining, design consideration would be based on whatever makes building simpler. The first faction that creates an automated factory that make a max-size combat design could completely dominate. Though making automated factories too easy is also bad.

Thirdly, LAG!! When there is a ship with hundreds of thrusters and millions of parts in your area you will notice some problems with the game. Starbase relies on a "peer to peer computing" concept; the computing load is shared between each player in a given area. Like other computing schemes Having more stuff to simulate per person means more lag, and having each person flying a bigger ship means more stuff to simulate. The lag would most severaly affect the pilot of the big ship, but would also hit everyone around. In a situation where everyone has a huge ship the lag will be similarly huge. Since combat and destruction is espiecially simulation intensive, those battles made slow by thicker armor will be even slower. Frozenbyte may have to further shrink the maximum part limits.
Of course optimization will help, but optimization is asymptotic, meaning improvements come easily at first but slow down as you get closer to a hypothetically perfect version of the Starbase engine. Even a perfect version of the engine would merely reduce the burden. Computer hardware improves exponentially, but not all exponential growth is equal. The growth of computer capability has noticeably slowed across the last decade and I don't know exactly how fast ship size would grow in Starbase.

tldr: Mining laser spam could make big ships too cheap ruining balance, new player experience and lag.
 

Quinc

Well-known endo
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
56
#2
While I mention the mining laser this really applies to the entire process of turning raw resources into finished ships. The solution involves some sort of intentional bottle-neck in the process that cannot be overcome with a bigger ship or fancy exploits. The bottle-neck ought to be around mining for two reasons. The main reason being that it would force players to spend more time outside the safety of their base and more time in ships, experiencing more random encounters. A lesser reason is avoiding a build-up of unrefined resources. In addition I think there are various ways to make mining more interesting.

Still I don't think actually building the ship should ever become too easy, espiecially if there is a limit on mining. From the videos automated factories are meant to be possible but not easy. Designing the factory is far more difficult than the ship that is meant to be built, but easier and far less repetitive than creating that ship 30 times. Each factory is specific to a certain output. Creating different things means building another factory, or at least engineering a new equally complicated YOLOL code. That seems fine, but what could be a problem are the sort of "ship printers" I saw in "Space Engineers", where a single wall of building tools can be used to generate anything.

Frozenbyte can adjust the amount of material you get for each asteroid voxel, which would adjust the mining speed of everything. That number would be balanced to fit whatever becomes the main mining method. If it is based around just a pick-axe, a ship with 24 mining lasers would be too much, if it is based around that max ship with 24 mining lasers pickaxe mining will feel useless. Of course cargo lock beams provide an alternative to mining asteroids directly. One that is also based on the size of the ship. This could be nerfed by changing the ratio of core ore vs the relatively useless outer material found in asteroids.

The simplest solution, and the version of the bottle-neck Frozenbyte seems to be employing is to limit the number of mining lasers on a ship and reduce the amount they mine and possible increase the power requirements. Potentially they could even make it so a max-size ship is only a little faster than a pick-axe. An even simpler solution would be to change the mining laser into a larger cutting laser, that is make it so it can destroy voxels but those voxels don't leave behind usable resources. Thus the pick axe would define everyone's mining speed. Dual Universe is a game that is very similar to Starbase and they have limited mining to hand tools citing similar reasons; however in Dual Universe you can use skills to improve your mining rate but not exponentially. Considering how much time people will spend mining it is important to make the activity interesting, which likely means making increasing your mining output much more challenging that simply bringing more mining machines. I will be posting my own idea in the suggestions forum later.

Limits are well...limiting. With the ability to arrange a ship any way you want, if players can fit a ship with infinite money making modules then they will do so and players will have infinite credits. The grind is frustrating but in a world where building ships takes effort players are not meant to have infinite credits. The arbitrary part limits would quickly become the main factor that determines what most ships are like. Unless everything is balanced around max size ships, everything would become unbalanced. While people often use "exponential growth" to mean "fast growth" that is incorrect. New players would have to grind forever to build anything comparable, or else join and obey established players. With exponential growth you either have too little or too much. Naturally a game world filled with max size ships will have maximum lag too. The end result is that mining rates cannot vary that greatly between two players and prevent people from simply spamming mining lasers.
 

CalenLoki

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
741
#3
While this is valid concern, you're missing one already present limiting factor: to mine asteroid you need to fly to it. It takes time, and the bigger the ship, the longer it takes.
So i.e. with small starter miner+pickaxe you spend a minute flying between two asteroids and 10 min whacking at it.
While in big ships mining may take only 1 min (thanks to mass of lasers), but flying takes 2 min.

Those are made-up numbers, but you get the idea. You can't really reduce mining time any further.
At least until someone builds automatic drones, butt that requires some sensors and communication devices we don't have currently,
Or until we get huge concentrated ore deposits.

I like the idea of lasers destroying the ore, but IMO it should do that only when you hit the ingot second time, after separating it. That would force players to engineer some smart solutions to avoid it, rather than using big brutal walls of lasers.
1601797336596.png


Cargo lock beams aren't really an alternative to mining. While now you can get money by just selling entire asteroids, once we get material-based economy someone/something will have to mine those hauled asteroids anyway.

Arbitrary limits (i.e. max 30 lasers) are just bad for gameplay. They are needed because of performance, but balancing anything with them is just show of lack of better ideas.
 

CalenLoki

Master endo
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
741
#5
Starter job works only on dev stations, and use "fake" infinite asteroids generated there, not "real" asteroids brought from the belt by someone.

Afaik the plan is: if you're far into game, far away from starting zone, all the economy will be purely player-to-player, and not player-to-npc (dev stations).
So no magic stations that vaporise asteroids/resources and generate money (and vice versa).
 
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
28
#6
Ah ok thanks for clarifying. Will be interesting to see how this shapes the economies of stations away from the dev stations
 

LauriFB

Administrator
Moderator
Frozenbyte
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
212
#8
It's interesting matter for sure, and a very complex one. Here's some random thoughts and insight to our plans regarding it:

Progression

Game allows pretty fast progression, especially in the beginning. First ship is acquired by completing three tutorial jobs, and this process should not take more than hour, and for fast players it's 30 min tops. First ship is the Laborer, which is a basic mininig ship with easy expansion support and even possibility for easy additional device attachment. This ship should be able to get everyone kickstarted with wealth collection. Most likely the progression from there on is a few larger mining ships, and then player has enough wealth to go towards one's chosen path.

Protection of property

Peaceful players have option to gather their wealth while enjoying almost total protection. Everyone gets at least one station spot and one piece of land from total safe zones, and in addition there will be a method for protecting most of the assets even while exploring the universe. The end goal is that everyone would have enough wealth to have also ships which can be lost in the unexpored frontiers. Peaceful players are able to explore and enjoy most of the content of the game without risking their core assets.

However, if you want to control large parts of the universe or wage wars that will require higher risks, even risking large pieces of property (stations and similar chunks of property). Also war salvaging and piracy have the immediate risk of losing ship used for those activities, as well as all mining, especially radioactive material mining, in more dangerous areas.

Automation

The game is designed heavily around automation, thus making property gain to be constant. However, since asteroids won't regenerate and some materials are very rare and far away, keeping up even linear growth will require travel and exploration. Without taking risks the wealth gathering takes longer since there's a lot more back and forth travel to safety. However, with small to medium risk you can establish a small base with limited safe zone, collect wealth there, and organize larger transports to full safety. All this wealth is more at risk, especially if pirates find out about larger transports. So while a lot of wealth can be gathered from relative safety, faster wealth gain requires taking risks.

More versus larger devices

We are working on larger thrusters and larger crates to start with, and eventually everything will also come in larger variants, so instead of a lot of small ones there will be option for a few larger ones. We'll most likely encourage the use of larger ones.

New versus old players

While old players have always the theoretical advantage, in Starbase after certain point the feasible cap in single property size is achieved (ships especially). At latest from that point, and most likely even before, the one with more clever ship design, better tactics, with more creative automation, or better risk management has upper hand. So it's not just amount of the property, but also with creativity and skill where players can excel, allowing new players plenty of room to take their seat at the top. And since combat is also about skill, tactics and design, the one with less ships can still be victorious and in the process they can salvage opponent's property, thus tilting also the property balance towards their favour.

Furthermore, when universe expands (new planets and such), each expansion event carries a partial starting over at the new area and partial new rules: not all wealth like static stations can be carried over to the new frontiers, and there could also be new materials or gameplay setting which requires new approaches and inventions. The new area could be explored with certain colony ships, so everyone with such ship have the option to compete over the new materials and mechanics, and even someone with less resources to start with can invent faster the new ways at the new land.
 

Quinc

Well-known endo
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
56
#9
My preferred solution would be to force players to separate out the materials found in each asteroid. The concept already applies to the "Mining Job" but not "real" mining. I think this would add challenge and prevent players from mining too quickly.

https://forum.starbasegame.com/thre...res-makes-mining-a-challenge.1522/#post-12534

I imagine that a maximum size ship would represent several hours of effort to create. The cost of a ship should continue to be a consideration even when the veteran miner community maximizes their ability. Though perhaps Lauri is correct to assume that veteran players will fly max size ships most of the time either way. I am assuming that Starbase will borrow the idea from EvE Online that ships are hard to replace and larger ships are even harder to replace.

Indeed my suggestion is one with a relatively quick progression and one where there isn't a huge difference between what a new player can do and what an old player can do.
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
5
#10
The game is infinitely large but with long travel times. It is not resource gathering that you should worry about but other players as its also a pvp game.
 
Top